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Thread: Is 10mm auto enough ??

  1. #1

    Default Is 10mm auto enough ??

    For the big critters.
    I know this has been asked a lot before, but thought I would start a new thread.

    I now live in the lower 48 and use a 10mm auto for hog hunting.

    I am working on some new loads, 6" bbl, 200 gr hardcast over 800-x that should
    be at about 800-850+ FPE. Might work up some 220 grainers too.

    In a few years hopefully I will be moving to AK and want something for 4 legged protection while hunting. I had a 460V, but it was just too big and heavy to schlep around so I sold it. Very nice gun though. It was an overkill for anything down here anyway.

    When I get ready to move, I could also just pick up a 454 casull, like the 2" bbl ruger or maybe a 4-5" barreled 454 but again heavy.

    At any rate a 10mm auto is a lot lighter and I could probably get off 2 shots by the time I recover from one shot from a 2" bbl casull, but If I only had one shot I would take the casull.

    Thanks in advance

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    Default Best bang for the weight

    If you fish you will find a handgun for protection is a must in many places as the fish that attract people are also very popular with bears. When hunting you will at least have a rifle with you.

    Weight is always an issue - if a gun is too heavy you simply will end up not carrying it. If carrying the gun requires strapping on a belt and holster everytime you step off the pavement or away from the campsite odds are you will get surprised and not have the pistol with you when you need it.

    For a powerfull dependable lightweight pistol there is just no equal to the S&W 329 PD. The weight of mine unloaded with the rubber grips is only 24.8 oz. I shoot 315 gr. hard cast lead bullets out of mine that should have a pretty fair chance of stopping a bear, moose, or other varmit. A .454 is better but the weight and bulk is much more. I can easily drop my 329 PD in a lightweight jacket pocket of in the hip pocket of my jeans but I need to get a nylon clip on holster.

    The 4" barrel is a little short for hunting but you can get some practice with it before you move up. The 240 gr bullets should work fine on anything down there but most people up here prefer the heavier bullets as penetration is more important than expansion on our larger animals.


    Quote Originally Posted by tammons View Post
    For the big critters.
    I know this has been asked a lot before, but thought I would start a new thread.

    I now live in the lower 48 and use a 10mm auto for hog hunting.

    I am working on some new loads, 6" bbl, 200 gr hardcast over 800-x that should
    be at about 800-850+ FPE. Might work up some 220 grainers too.

    In a few years hopefully I will be moving to AK and want something for 4 legged protection while hunting. I had a 460V, but it was just too big and heavy to schlep around so I sold it. Very nice gun though. It was an overkill for anything down here anyway.

    When I get ready to move, I could also just pick up a 454 casull, like the 2" bbl ruger or maybe a 4-5" barreled 454 but again heavy.

    At any rate a 10mm auto is a lot lighter and I could probably get off 2 shots by the time I recover from one shot from a 2" bbl casull, but If I only had one shot I would take the casull.

    Thanks in advance
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  3. #3

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    Yep, that is a nice revolver and I have looked at them.

    Certainly an option and I used to own a Taurus Tracker in 44mag that weighed 34oz
    So I know I can handle the recoil.

    Generally the 10mm loaded with 200-220 gr bullets hot with a 6" barrel should produce about
    850 FPE vs a 44 mag, 4" BBL 255 grainer at 1300 fps with around 950-1000 FPE.

    Big enough difference so I guess the rest would come down to penetration, which I would guess
    that they should be fairly close as far as penetration with hardcast with an edge to the 44 mag.

    Still the 44mag would be better.

    The 454 casull Alaskan weighs 44 oz or about 10 oz more than my old tracker 44 so not that bad
    as far as a belt carry, but with the 2" bbl you take a big hit in FPS.

    A 300 grainer at 1200 fps out of a 2" bbl is running at 960 fpe, so not much better IMO than a 44mag
    with a 4" bbl except a bigger bullet and a ***** load of recoil.

    A 5" bbl 454 casull is better in exterior ballistics but at 51oz is getting up there again into a pants dragger.

    Thanks

  4. #4
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    Default big and heavy

    Once you get into the pants dragger catagory - i.e. your need a holster and belt - I figure I might as well go to my 4" .500 S&W. Like the 329 PD the 4" .500 is in a class of its own - extremely powerful yet still small enough to carry in a shoulder holster. Like the 329 PD it isn't good for much other than personal protection but I figure they are cheap insurance against getting chewed or stomped in the woods.

    A 4" Ruger Redhawk in .454 would be nice but they Ruger doesn't make them. Some people put them together using two guns but they aren't cheap to assemble and there must be some very good reason Ruger doesn't market them - like the 329 PD they would fill a special nitch for a powerful lighter weight gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by tammons View Post
    Yep, that is a nice revolver and I have looked at them.

    Certainly an option and I used to own a Taurus Tracker in 44mag that weighed 34oz
    So I know I can handle the recoil.

    Generally the 10mm loaded with 200-220 gr bullets hot with a 6" barrel should produce about
    850 FPE vs a 44 mag, 4" BBL 255 grainer at 1300 fps with around 950-1000 FPE.

    Big enough difference so I guess the rest would come down to penetration, which I would guess
    that they should be fairly close as far as penetration with hardcast with an edge to the 44 mag.

    Still the 44mag would be better.

    The 454 casull Alaskan weighs 44 oz or about 10 oz more than my old tracker 44 so not that bad
    as far as a belt carry, but with the 2" bbl you take a big hit in FPS.

    A 300 grainer at 1200 fps out of a 2" bbl is running at 960 fpe, so not much better IMO than a 44mag
    with a 4" bbl except a bigger bullet and a ***** load of recoil.

    A 5" bbl 454 casull is better in exterior ballistics but at 51oz is getting up there again into a pants dragger.

    Thanks
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  5. #5
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Default

    Bear can move at 35mph and reach that speed like a top fuel dragster . . . I saw a 400+ pound Griz out run and out corner a rabbit. So in a DLP (defense of life or property) situation where the bear is inside 30 yards you will have something like 2 seconds to compute that its actually charging and shoot! Now with your own water filling your boot and blood pressure at ďgood lord-over-Iím gonna dieĒ how many well aimed shots can you get off at a moving basket ball size target? Most figure one or two is it before it is on you.

    So, I figure every one better be powerful enough to do the job. You will be shooting at the thickest bone at an angle that likes to deflect things, need power and heavy/solid enough bullet to get in there. If you miss a little left or right you are in the shoulder and need enough to smash heavy bone after it penetrated all the stuff to get there. Miss high and youíre in the neck/back and need power to sever it. Miss low and your SOL.

    Will a 10mm do the dead on a brown bear . . . I think maybe it would but I donít want a maybe so for me 41mag/44mag/45 Colt with good load and bullet is minimum. Take the brown bear encounter out of it and Iíd feel just fine with my 10mm. I know 10mm will stop a moose, black bear, or crazy people just fine and moose are the bigger threat here anyway.

    So when you get here just do like all the rest of us do, make the choice that you think fits you best. Nobody actually knows if 10mm is enough, or 500S&W is too much, so itís a personal choice you get to make and live with.
    Andy
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    Default

    I don't believe that FPE has a whole lot to do with how effective a hand gun round is for DLP against lg bear.I think about 1000fps to be about minimum with a 300+gr bullet with 1200/1300 being better. I don't think velocity really makes up for lack of bullet weight. I believe 250grs to be about minimum on bullet wieght. So a 250gr at 1000fps probably would work with a good hit. My carry load is 270gr at 1200fps and although it's not in the 454 class it's not 454 weight either. My gun, a 41mag, will shoot a 225gr cast at 1480fps, but I don't think that load will be as effective as the heavier slower load even though the FPE is probably higher. Is the 10mm enough? I don't really know, but if thats what I was carrying, I would load the heaviest flat nose bullet I could get to feed reliably and try to get it to 1100fps. To me, big bears are like tanks. A lot of little bullets don't do much but one big one can stop them in their tracks. If I had a 4" or 5" M29 S&W, It would be my carry gun with 300gr+ at what ever I could push them to. What ever you use, it has to be something you will be wearing when you need it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    I don't believe that FPE has a whole lot to do with how effective a hand gun round is for DLP against lg bear.I think about 1000fps to be about minimum with a 300+gr bullet with 1200/1300 being better. I don't think velocity really makes up for lack of bullet weight. I believe 250grs to be about minimum on bullet wieght. So a 250gr at 1000fps probably would work with a good hit. My carry load is 270gr at 1200fps and although it's not in the 454 class it's not 454 weight either. My gun, a 41mag, will shoot a 225gr cast at 1480fps, but I don't think that load will be as effective as the heavier slower load even though the FPE is probably higher. Is the 10mm enough? I don't really know, but if thats what I was carrying, I would load the heaviest flat nose bullet I could get to feed reliably and try to get it to 1100fps. To me, big bears are like tanks. A lot of little bullets don't do much but one big one can stop them in their tracks. If I had a 4" or 5" M29 S&W, It would be my carry gun with 300gr+ at what ever I could push them to. What ever you use, it has to be something you will be wearing when you need it.

    Well said.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default Lightest minimum pistol

    I was testing some loads with my 4" 329 PD this weekend and found I can drive a 315 gr bullet at around 1100 fps. That is with a 24.8 oz pistol (unloaded). That is the load I'll be carrying until I find something better but I don't expect to improve things much. Remember that this is with a pistol you can easily drop in your pocket - the odds of having it with you when you need it are vastly increased. I do need to pick up a nylon holster for it I can easily clip on my belt when I am more lightly dressed.

    At the other end of the range I can drive a 440 gr bullet to over 1300 fps or a 500 gr to around 1200 fps with my 4" .500. But like many heavy guns I have to put on a holster to wear it so the odds of having it with me are significantly decreased.


    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    I don't believe that FPE has a whole lot to do with how effective a hand gun round is for DLP against lg bear.I think about 1000fps to be about minimum with a 300+gr bullet with 1200/1300 being better. I don't think velocity really makes up for lack of bullet weight. I believe 250grs to be about minimum on bullet wieght. So a 250gr at 1000fps probably would work with a good hit. My carry load is 270gr at 1200fps and although it's not in the 454 class it's not 454 weight either. My gun, a 41mag, will shoot a 225gr cast at 1480fps, but I don't think that load will be as effective as the heavier slower load even though the FPE is probably higher. Is the 10mm enough? I don't really know, but if thats what I was carrying, I would load the heaviest flat nose bullet I could get to feed reliably and try to get it to 1100fps. To me, big bears are like tanks. A lot of little bullets don't do much but one big one can stop them in their tracks. If I had a 4" or 5" M29 S&W, It would be my carry gun with 300gr+ at what ever I could push them to. What ever you use, it has to be something you will be wearing when you need it.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Tvfinak
    To me the 329PD would be pretty close to ideal. Enough punch and small and light enough to carry easily. Wish I had one.

  10. #10

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    If we are worried about bears why are we carrying handguns? How many of us have shot a bear with a handgun to know what works or not? Was the bear upset or was it a hunting situation? Ballistics and bullet theories change almost monthly it seems. Many are experts yet is it because of writers, advertisers, or real life knowledge?

    Why I carry a pistol is for the simple reason that it gets my wife into the outdoors. I hate carrying a rifle when I don't hunt and she wants a gun on me when she is hiking or camping with me. I started carrying my sons 30-30 for ease of packing it over my overpowered rifle and then she bought me a pistol to carry so I would be more comfortable. She has as much knowledge of what I could do in a bear situation with it as I do, but it makes her comfortable. She was even comfortable if I carried a 2.5 inch 38 special(humans are more of a threat in my mind) but she was a sweetheart so she bought me a ----- for crummy humans and bears. Does it matter what she bought me? The truth is even I, who has not carried in 15 years while not hunting, feels better with my ---- on my hip. She feels better and goes everywhere with me.

    I will classify that I carry my overpowered rifle in high human use non bear hunted areas.


    FWIW Dan
    It is nice to know that there are "ALASKANS" out there, no matter where they live.

  11. #11
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    It's all about the construction of the bullet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    It's all about the construction of the bullet...
    Well......No it is much more than that. Your statement says disregard caliber, bullet weight, energy, velocity.

    I don't think that's what you meant but it looks that way. Bullet construction, even hypothetically speaking, cannot make a 10MM pistol into something that it isn't. I don't think the jury is "in" on the subject of 10 MM as a Bear DLP cartridge, I am sure with a perfect shot and the perfect bullet we could put one into the brain of a grizzly but......That isn't likely to happen soon.

    We do know what the larger caliber heavier hard cast LBT style bullets will do to a bear carcass, that isn't a myth. We need to look at 10 MM as a hunting cartridge. I've only taken white tailed deer and coyotes with the 10 MM. I've used the 200 and 210 grain hard cast LBT style bullets on deer and (from a 6" revolver) and they did do the job. I can't say to the equal of 41 mag but the worked. No where near the effect of the 44 Mag with heavier bullets. (250 to 300 grain) But is in all cases is about more than just bullet construction.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Last year a guy on this forum tested his 10mm on a black bear. It was in fact a hunting situation but none the less it killed that bear with one shot. If I am in an area that I am concerned with bears then I will carry a side arm and the short shotgun. Is it heavy? yes it is. Will it cover my needs when a bear wants to tangle? Very much so. The side arm is for those moments when the shotgun is not in my hands and is the last line of defense. I never want to get to that point but I am prepared if need be.

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    Just remember a 22 short will kill a 1200 pound steer....all you gotta do is get it thru the hide and bone. A well placed solid, heavy for caliber bullet at mid-range or moderate velocity will do the trick. I'd rather have a solid hard 147 gr 9mm in the brain pan than a .44/.454/.500 hollow point splatered on the skull.

    It IS about bullet construction when you want penetration. High velocity just creates more recoil and makes it harder to shoot the gun accurately. Hard heavy bullets at moderate velocity penetrate....simple as that. That's why a .45-70 with a hard heavy bullet will shoot thru a 5' long buffalo.

    I used to think I could learn how to fly fish with a Sako .375 H&H carbine over my shoulder...I couldn't so I went with a 5" Super Blackhawk shooting 310 gr linotype bullets. That was 25 years ago and I still think it is the right answer.

    Will a 10mm work? Yip...HARD 200 gr at 1000 fps oughta do just fine if you can put it where it needs to be to kill whatever is after you.

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    I met a person who killed a charging griz with a 10mm using HSM 180 FMJs. While he didnt get hurt, He bought a shotgun for his next trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tammons View Post
    For the big critters.
    At any rate a 10mm auto is a lot lighter and I could probably get off 2 shots by the time I recover from one shot from a 2" bbl casull, but If I only had one shot I would take the casull.
    For your 10mm. If that is what was available, I'd carry it....I've carried less and have been fortunate to never have used a firearm in DLP.

    As with many people, I've bought a few handguns over the years, and they all have their benefits and disadvantages.

    IMO, for DLP from four legged critters, I would stay away from anything with a 2" barrel. While it may be lighter than a gun of equal caliber that has a longer caliber ... I would strongly recommend a longer barrel (say 4" minimum). For casual fishing and trail walking, the S&W airlites and a 4" barrel chambered in 44 mag offer a pleasing balance between cartridge, sight radius, and weight. I like the chest holsters for this application but the S&W airlite is light enough to not expose too much flesh to the blood suckers when worn on a belt. But if you take a short barreled pistol to the range and are satisfied the accuracy serves your needs, then who am I to cast mere opinion.

    If you like to fish in areas frequented by bears or decide to be a walking bait station, then would suggest a cartridge (pistol/rifle) that is a minimum of 454 casull... but if I had a 10mm, then I would carry that.

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    Default No matter what

    Tammon, since you are an experienced handloader and hunter, what is adequate in your hands may not be adequate in less experienced hands. Please respond with a message for anyone reading this thread who might take approval of the 10mm for bear protection, especially in defensive situations, as approval for less experienced travelers. Your perspective would be valuable.

    No matter what else I carry, I also have a large can of high concentration pepper spray, the kind designed for bears. Between a firearm and the spray, if only one, the spray.

    Here are some experiences that informed my decision. The last one (two different citations, same event) might not have succeeded with the spray, but who knows?

    See the post by windwalker, about 2/3 of the way down the page
    http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/view...r=asc&start=60

    http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html 4/18/08 Anchorage Daily News

    and these three sites refer to the same event

    http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stor...78669517.shtml

    http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildl...ry/897940.html

    and for a direct quote from the surviving party with pictures

    http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.p...,179994.0.html

    Bullet placement, penetration to vitals (construction and momentum) and ability to create a wound channel (energy). All are important.

    If you kill it, you have to report it, (and assuming you are uninjured enough) to preserve the skull and cape and do not even get to keep any souvenir but pictures and a copy of the State's investigation report. If you wound it (again, assuming you are able) you are morally, if not legally, responsible for a now more dangerous bear.

    By all means, protect yourself. Also, protect other people left in your wake.

    Back to the original poster. You are experienced with wild pigs. For Brown bears, scale up to 1,000 lbs. But also remember that bears (Brown and Black) are more solitary than pigs and a lot less aggressive in most encounters. What would you use on this one? (Not me. I found this reference in another forum)
    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...43&m=236106768

    Lost Sheep

    p.s. Moderators. This post duplicates and improves on my first post in this thread (just above this one) wherein I had problems getting my paragraphing to post correctly. Please delete it.

  18. #18
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Of all my pistols the 10mm Is the only one that I plan to reload for. Vendors seem to think they are casting gold instead of lead! I will keep saving 45 acp and 44 brass but for me the time to reload them doesn't pan out with the meager savings. Buffalo bore wants 35 bucks for 20 two twenty grn HC's!! That is ridiculous!!

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    Lujon
    You are right on about $35 for 20rounds being rediculous as the load is not real hard to duplicate. But, I don't think reloading for the 44mag or the 45acp to be a poor use of time. Heavy cast in the 44mag are running well over a buck a piece and regular 45autos are about $.50 each. I can load 45acp for about $.05 each and heavy 44s for $.12 to $.15 depending whether I use homemade gas checks or commercial. I think saving $20 per box on 45s and about $1 each on 44s to be significant. I can load 400+ per hour and to me that makes it very worth while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    I was testing some loads with my 4" 329 PD this weekend and found I can drive a 315 gr bullet at around 1100 fps. That is with a 24.8 oz pistol (unloaded). That is the load I'll be carrying until I find something better but I don't expect to improve things much. Remember that this is with a pistol you can easily drop in your pocket - the odds of having it with you when you need it are vastly increased. I do need to pick up a nylon holster for it I can easily clip on my belt when I am more lightly dressed.

    At the other end of the range I can drive a 440 gr bullet to over 1300 fps or a 500 gr to around 1200 fps with my 4" .500. But like many heavy guns I have to put on a holster to wear it so the odds of having it with me are significantly decreased.
    Granted, you arenít the only one who thinks like that, so I donít mean to unload the whole truck on you, BUT, I wonder about the mindset.

    Donít you have enough control over yourself, to the extent that you wonít leave your gun behind, if there is a possibility you would need it? No matter how heavy or cumbersome it is?

    Besides, If itís that bad, why didja buy it in the first place, and/or why isnít it up for SALE?

    Shucky Gee. I love my guns. Probably, they are few in number, compared to what you might have, but I have more than I need, or am able to utilize, anyhoo.

    Try as I might, I just donít get out into the Swamps, as much as Iíd like, and when Iím on one of my expeditions, there is NO-WAY, (Make that ďNO STEENKIN WAYĒ) Iím gonna forget my gun. It would RUIN my trip.

    I actually, LOOK for an excuse to pack a rifle, handgun or whatever firearm, Iíve deemed appropriate, or perhaps, essential.

    It makes no sense to me, the argument that a lightweight gun is wonderful because, youíre more likely to have it with you, than a heavier one, when YOU are in control of the decision making.

    Smitty of the North.
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

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