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Thread: .45 Long Colt case vs. .44 Rem. Mag. case pressures

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    Default .45 Long Colt case vs. .44 Rem. Mag. case pressures

    As the newer cartridge is the 44 Rem. Mag. case designed to stand higher pressure than the older 45 Long Colt....?? Same modern firearm (Winchester 1892 reproduction).

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    Not anymore. The 45 Colt case and the 44 Magnum case are the same in strength and thickness. Brass makers would have to do something special to make the 45 Colt case thin and whimpy as they were in the black powder days. The 45 Colt survived the black powder era. Cases then were very thin and very weak and the rim of the old cases were formed by folding a lip at the bottom of a tube. (Balloon-head) No one does that any more. If you load your own, get some Starline 45 Colt brass and make some good ammo.
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    Well the cases will take the same pressure itís the cylinder that was the issue except in the very beginning with black powder. Take a cylinder of the same diameter and drill a bigger hole leaves less meat to hold pressure. So Elmer used the ole 44 special to hot-rod into a magnum rather than the 45 Colt. Now with modern strong guns like the Rugers you can bump the pressures of 45 Colt up and with the larger diameter .45 will match .44 performances with less pressure.

    SAAMI ratings:
    44 Special 15,500 cup
    44 Mag 36,000 cup
    45 Colt 14,000 cup
    45 Colt Ruger only 25,000 cup

    I have seen 44 mag loads to 40,000 cup and 45 Colt to 34,000 cup for Redhawk and FA but they are above SAAMI. 45 Colt at 25,000 cup roughly matches the power of 44mag at 36,000 cup due to diameter giving the pressure more built base to act on.

    Now in a re-pop 92 lever gun made with new steel, so long as the company makes it in 44mag I would not hastate to load the 45 Colt versions to Ruger only pressure levels. In fact I would even cautiously conceder going on up to 34-35,000 cup and have done so in my Rossi 92 . . . Rossi has a 92 in .45 that goes all the way to SAAMI 454 of 50,000cup so I know they are strong guns.
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    Has any ever postively verified that all modern .45 LC cases are made of the same material, same tempering and heat treating, and quality control as the .44 Magnum cases? If not for all cases - is it true for some identified ones?

    Or has anyone actually tested under controlled laboratory conditions that all modern .45 LC cases will operate at the same pressure as the normal .44 Mag cases?

    I'm not disagreeing with anything or trying to make any point - just asking trying to define what were actually know - or don't know about the .44 Mag and .45 LC cases. What I know we do have is the SAAMI specs and the experiences of many shooters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Has any ever postively verified that all modern .45 LC cases are made of the same material, same tempering and heat treating, and quality control as the .44 Magnum cases? If not for all cases - is it true for some identified ones?

    Or has anyone actually tested under controlled laboratory conditions that all modern .45 LC cases will operate at the same pressure as the normal .44 Mag cases?

    I'm not disagreeing with anything or trying to make any point - just asking trying to define what were actually know - or don't know about the .44 Mag and .45 LC cases. What I know we do have is the SAAMI specs and the experiences of many shooters.
    Well Starline uses the exact same process, machine, and marital to make 460 S&W brass as they do to make 45 Colt just spits it out a longer with a rifle primer pocket depth. I have done no formal testing but I have run many 454 charges though my 460 inside cheap 45 Colt brass from different makers with bullets seated long to have 454 volume using CCI 350s without any issues at all . . . I hate the small rifle primers in 454 brass. Modern 45 Colt brass will take quite a lot more pressure than 45 Colt guns will, the brass is not the weak link so long as the gun supports it and holds up . . . naturally if the chamber fails to support it the case will fail.
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    You make a good point. If we have brass for the 45 Colt, there is no guarantee that it is modern or even new.

    I will say that if you buy new 45 Colt brass today from any of the U.S. makers it will be capable of withstanding 36,000 psi loadings in a gun built to do so. This also applies to the 44 Special brass. But even the newest and best bade 45 Colt brass will not hold together with a 36,000 psi load in my 1901 model Colt SAA. )-:



    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Has any ever postively verified that all modern .45 LC cases are made of the same material, same tempering and heat treating, and quality control as the .44 Magnum cases? If not for all cases - is it true for some identified ones?

    Or has anyone actually tested under controlled laboratory conditions that all modern .45 LC cases will operate at the same pressure as the normal .44 Mag cases? Yes I have.

    I'm not disagreeing with anything or trying to make any point - just asking trying to define what were actually know - or don't know about the .44 Mag and .45 LC cases. What I know we do have is the SAAMI specs and the experiences of many shooters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Well Starline uses the exact same process, machine, and marital to make 460 S&W brass as they do to make 45 Colt just spits it out a longer with a rifle primer pocket depth. I have done no formal testing but I have run many 454 charges though my 460 inside cheap 45 Colt brass from different makers with bullets seated long to have 454 volume using CCI 350s without any issues at all . . . I hate the small rifle primers in 454 brass. Modern 45 Colt brass will take quite a lot more pressure than 45 Colt guns will, the brass is not the weak link so long as the gun supports it and holds up . . . naturally if the chamber fails to support it the case will fail.
    I dislike that small rifle pocket too. I have some Starline 454 brass made with Large Pistol pockets and it works fine for any load that will keep the bullets in the case under recoil. About 45,000 psi is the limit for them but my loads are good at that. I also have some 10 MM with with small pistol pockets.

    Yes the 45 Colt, 454 and 460 are all from the same machine. Just as are the the 44 special, 44 magnum and 445 mag brass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    But even the newest and best bade 45 Colt brass will not hold together with a 36,000 psi load in my 1901 model Colt SAA. )-:
    Yes because, as ole Elmer found, there will no longer be a chamber left to support the case.
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    I think this is a interesting subject. I have only just started trying to find the potential safe limits of my two new 1892's. However it appears, tho not yet conclusive, that there is a limit to the forward weight that the elevator can raise.

    I have ordered the Double Tap 360 gr. .45 Long Colt cartridges, and I have some fear the elevator may not be powerful enough to lift the cartridge. This fear is based on the "Reluctance" of the 1892 in .44 Mag. to lift the 305 gr. CorBon cartridges. There may be many different factors here. Thanks for the help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I dislike that small rifle pocket too. I have some Starline 454 brass made with Large Pistol pockets and it works fine for any load that will keep the bullets in the case under recoil. About 45,000 psi is the limit for them but my loads are good at that. I also have some 10 MM with with small pistol pockets.
    I donít get enough recoil in the X-frames to give me crimp jump issues till I get into heavy loads under heavy bullets in 460. 454 felt recoil in an X-frame is like maybe a 357 in a Blackhawk so I donít have crimp jump unless I just didnít set the die up right. I also have a collection of older 460 brass that cracked at the mouth from all that crimping I cut back to 454 and I like that best so far.

    Where did you find 454 with LP pockets? Even though they are rated at 60 and 65Kpsi the hottest 454 and 460 loads are actually only in the 55,000psi range anyway, extraction gets sticky right around there. CCI 350s will take that so Iíd also do fine with large pistol pockets.

    Never seen any 10mm with SP pockets but I got a bunch of old 357 with LP pockets that I like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AGL4now View Post
    I think this is a interesting subject. I have only just started trying to find the potential safe limits of my two new 1892's. However it appears, tho not yet conclusive, that there is a limit to the forward weight that the elevator can raise.

    I have ordered the Double Tap 360 gr. .45 Long Colt cartridges, and I have some fear the elevator may not be powerful enough to lift the cartridge. This fear is based on the "Reluctance" of the 1892 in .44 Mag. to lift the 305 gr. CorBon cartridges. There may be many different factors here. Thanks for the help.
    Hmm, never had that issue but my 92s are 357s and a 45 Colt . . . no 44mag. Generally itís the nose shape of longer heavy bullets that are the limiting factor in a 92, big flat noses tend to hit the top chamber wall as they go in.
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    The brass I have with LP pockets is from a run Starline made a few years back. I also have some with an odd head stamp and don't remember what it was but I bought them used at a pawn shop somewhere. Once fired I presume from factory ammo. The 10MM is also Starline. I bought it from Graf as an overrun and it had Cor Bon head stamp. (Starline made)
    Yeah most factory 454 ammo is loaded to much less than the cartridge is spec'd for.

    The weight of that X-frame helps slow down its recoil velocity.




    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    I donít get enough recoil in the X-frames to give me crimp jump issues till I get into heavy loads under heavy bullets in 460. 454 felt recoil in an X-frame is like maybe a 357 in a Blackhawk so I donít have crimp jump unless I just didnít set the die up right. I also have a collection of older 460 brass that cracked at the mouth from all that crimping I cut back to 454 and I like that best so far.

    Where did you find 454 with LP pockets? Even though they are rated at 60 and 65Kpsi the hottest 454 and 460 loads are actually only in the 55,000psi range anyway, extraction gets sticky right around there. CCI 350s will take that so Iíd also do fine with large pistol pockets.

    Never seen any 10mm with SP pockets but I got a bunch of old 357 with LP pockets that I like.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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