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Thread: Shooting Game in front of non-hunters

  1. #1
    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Default Shooting Game in front of non-hunters

    How many of you have actually shot and killed game in front of non-hunters and have had to deal with certain situations? The reason why I ask because we do alot of hunting here along roadsides here in Alaska and One example: (this was about 5 years ago)one of my friends coworker drew a Desert sheep tag for an area just outside of Las Vegas, this area is frequented by tourists and the bus drivers always stop when the sheep come up along side the road well he was hunting on a prime spot when a band of rams were moving toward the roadside, his friend tried to get the buses and the tourists out of there so he could take the shot, the tourists could not see him because he was in blended in well. after a while and his once in a lifetime oppurtunity started to fade, he took the shot to bag his ram, then all hell broke loose, and people were in disgust, I believe this was in the news too, can't mention names but this really happened, the hunt was legal and in a legal area, all safety aspects and risk management were observed prior to taking the shot so no one was in any danger, just want to get you take on this.....K

  2. #2
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    kahahawai;
    The feelings of nonhunters run just as passionate as ours, missinformed though they may be they believe they are doing whats right. In other states I've had rocks thrown at me while fly fishing because I was torturing the fish(Peoples republic of Washington). People have followed me into the woods with cow bells(sad to say lower penninsula of Michigan)
    And members of my wifes fammily have refeered to me as the great white bunny killer. I avoid huntting in areas and with people for whom it's a problem out of respect for there fellings.

    Wich begs another question what kind of image do we show the non hunting public? I dont have a TV, havent in almost a year, but I had one and had the outdoor life channel. Most of the programming was good but there were definatly afew shows I had a major problem with. Dose film of a man shooting an elephant at close range including blood spray help our cause? How about 5 guys in a duck blind blasting away at 2 malards as the guide yells "kill em"? Dose footage of 2 guys sitting in a pile of hundereds of doves in Mexico portray responsible ressource managment?
    The shows that combine quick shot editing and rock music with footage like this have more in comon with snuff films or music videos than the lifestyle I love. Even more repugnant are the "Ranch hunts" offered in many magazines. Just today I saw an add for a place in Texas that offers "exotic species hunts" Kudo and Spring Buck in Texas? Hunting animals in a inclousre that get there food at a feeder station is'nt hunting its killing. And we suport this stuff by not telling sponsers of programs that we dont like the way our sprot is being betrayed, or not telling folks who do "Ranch hunts" that they are not hunters they are just flat out dissgusting.

    Not long ago there was a post titled "do you video tape your hunts?" I did not respond to it out of respect, no I don't. For me a hunt is a deeply spiritual experiance and a way of providing healthy food that lived and died with honor for my fammily. I almost never even photograph my hunts it just feels more right too me.

    I know this is going to be an unpopular veiw but I think we really need to work on the image we project and write the companys who sponser shows like the ones I discribe. Tell people who use and ask about "ranch hunts" that they are wrong! And be careful how we discribe our hunts too people who may not understand what hunting is really about.

    This is probably preaching to the chior but I feel It needed to be said.
    Just one Alaskans opinion.

    Rick P

  3. #3
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Thumbs up I would have shot it too

    If you shouldn't shoot a legal game animal in front of a non-hunter....

    Then you shouldn't burn a flag in front of a veteran. You shouldn't watch an Ohio St football game in front of a Michigan fan. You shouldn't pay social security if you won't be able to claim it yourself. You shouldn't drive 70 mph on the interstate, because some feel it's too fast.....

    You and your partner did nothing wrong...

    I feel that hunters are going to bend until they break for anti's.... Where is their bending for us???? No two way street from where I stand.
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree, I hunt free range and i believe in free range hunting only too, I try to be as low key as possible when I hunt, I also cover up my game as much as possible especially if its in back of the truck. I really enjoy hunting though, like you said, its about the experience, I don't have to kill something all the time, just being out there and seeing animals satisfies my desire. You know whats funny, was, last year,memorial day weekend, I was driving the ALCAN with my family and had crossed the border into Canada, as soon as we crossed, we saw a few guys quartering out a big bull moose in full velvet, now immediately, it did not make sense to me so when I went into the check point, I asked the Canadian officials if moose was in season? and inquired about the guys quartering the moose out, they told me they were natives and that part was native land. (goes to show how much I know about Canadian game laws) So it really changed my perspective not to assume the worst of what you see. especially along side a road. I also read the the big news where Montgomery Gentry got a huge fine for that captive bear he shot too, thats just not a sport in my book, I can go on and on , but I would like to hear what the other hunters/guides think of this...K

  5. #5
    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    I wasn't stationed at Eielson at the time, but several years ago the caribou got off their migration route and were all up behind Eielson AFB, caribou season was open and was told that it was a "slaughter" on Chena Hot Springs Road? that Fish and Game had to close the season immediately, what kind of image did that portray? just curious....K

  6. #6
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Thumbs up The ol' Circle Slaughter

    That hunt is meant to take X amount of animal out of the herd every year. The same can/and has been said about the "Circle Slaughter" (which is the same herd, different area). If the herd comes into an accessible area the numbers are taken out immediately and the season is shut down. If they don't get the numbers they need then the late season is opened. X amount of animals are going to be taken whether they are taken at one time, or spaced out. The season isn't stopped because of the animals being "slaughtered". The season is closed because the quota was met, though be it in a very short time. This is the same thing that happens in Chicken. Once the quota is met the hunt is closed. These hunts are an effective herd management tool that ADF&G has at their disposal and discretion. I have participated in these hunts and so I have a differing opinion, maybe.

    I agree the visual isn't pleasing, but the end result is the same. Anti's don't care if 300 caribou are being taken at one time, or if they are spaced out over weeks/months. We shouldn't apologize for it. "Slaughter" would be if they were killed and left to rot. I know this is not your term, but a term used by a lot of folks for these hunts.

    Misinformation and ignorance of what is being done leads those to feel it is a slaughter. Granted it isn't the grand pursuit folks come to Alaska for, but most of the folks that take animals in these hunts are taking them for meat. They would rather drive up take their animal and drive home, than making it an expensive multi-day outing.

    Also, this doesn't happen every year. Some years the herd doesn't come close to the road system and it's just as much of a challenge as any other hunt. Some years they are beside the road. It isn't the turkey shoot it has the reputation for, though some years you could make that argument.

    This is the way I see these hunts in particular, others may see them differently.
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    I have to agree with akndres for the most part on this issue.

    I do try my best to be courteous and respectful of others feelings but not to the point that it effects what I legally have the right to do. I quit worrying about being "politically correct" long ago, I have as much right to hunt, fish etc as they do to whine about it.

    In regards to hunting shows, it boils down to changing the channel if this bothers you. I have yet to see anything illegally done on a show over the many years I have watched them. Also remember, it is LEGAL to hunt within a fence in Texas and many other states or use a helicopter to hunt in New Zealand, we do not need more infighting splitting apart the hunting community, we are great about doing this to ourselves. Don't like it dont do it and then take an active part in our great political process and work to change the laws.

    Doug

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    Member KRS's Avatar
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    I'm a hunter and I'm glad he got his ram... but does his desired use of our wildlife (hunting it) surpass the desired use of everyone else who was enjoying them at the time?

    I don't know why I'm having such negative feelings here... but I am. It seems selfish to shoot that ram in front of all those people... almost like the tag in his pocket was more important than those who were enjoying watching the animals.

    The guide had no right whatsoever to "get them out of there". They have just as much right to be there on the side of the road watching the rams as the hunter did.

    And we wonder why people don't like hunters

    And as for locating game by vehicle in Arizona.... it's illegal and defined by the state as "road hunting" and it'll getcha in trouble quick.

  9. #9
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    "It seems selfish to shoot that ram in front of all those people... almost like the tag in his pocket was more important than those who were enjoying watching the animals."

    I guess had a Mtn Lion come along and snatched up one of the rams in front of all those people watching they would call for its head? Nope, some may have been a little shaken over the experience but they would have called it nature working and then gone to Applebees for a beer and a steak that came from a cow that someone else killed so they did not have to do it.

    Doug

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    akndres, and dwhunter, I like your thinking.
    Too many folks see killing between non human species as "natural" and killing by humans as "un-natural". Fair number of hunters seem to have that view point and think we must apologize for, or hide, our activities. I think hunters need to "come out of the closet" so to speak!
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

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    Cool Not anti but just don't

    I use to hunt because that is what my family did and that is what my husband does. It was always hard for me to actually shoot the animal.

    After several years, I just finally gave it up. I go out hunting with my husband and my daughter, however when they actually do the "kill" shoot, I have to turn my head, collect myself, then everything is OK.

    Why give you the above information--to each his/her own, if you don't like it don't watch, don't be around it, if it bothers you have to realize that it might not bother others.

    It takes alot of different people to make this world go round or it would be pretty boring. If you tried to get the people to move on, you gave the common courtesy of "choice"; if they still watched, their problem!
    CuriousOne

  12. #12
    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    Default FYI

    here in alaska if there are people viewing game and you walk up and see it is a legal bear or any animal you can charged and possibly to go jail for 30 days and or pay a $500 fine, might be $1000 it is in the regs, don't remember what page but toward the front. Went through this a couple falls ago bear hunting in PWS. I was in the right and they launched a kayaker to scare of the bear. So the guy with me didn't get a shot and we confronted the boat with the kayaker. Turned them into the troopers but eventually dropped charges, because in court the trooper said they could change their story and make us the bad guys. They were plenty scared so we decided to drop them, had a thread on that a while back. I would have shot if the animals were on their way out of view. Also in whittier the troopers advised not shooting in front of cruise ships and tour boats. because that is there main reason for going, viewing game. Just wanted to say there is law in alaska.

  13. #13
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    Default Anti Neighbor

    When I was around 14 I had an elevated blind on the backside of my 2 acre yard in Wisconsin, deer came to feed on the nearby alfalfa field. One evening as I sat perched with my bow, I could see a neighbor lady walking her dog about on the road about 200 yards from my stand. A group of deer worked their way across the hill and the lady stopped and watched. As they neared my stand, a nice doe presented a good broadside and I paused, wondering exactly what this sheep hunter did. I waited much longer than I normally would have in hopes that she would walk out of sight so that I could take the animal without an audience...she didn't and I took the shot, the herd scattered and the doe ran off and expired out of sight. She obviously hadn't heard me shoot and but knew our family hunted this area and suspected what had happened. The topic came up shortly thereafter , as we were friendly neighbors, to which even at that age and a respectful youth, I explained that it was a legal hunt, and that the animal was taken with extreme respect to an efficent kill, under fair chase and was now feeding my family. Being respectful of her differing views, but firm on my belief and rights and basically agreeing to disagree, she walked away certainly not won over to the hunting side but with perhaps with a touch more respect for hunters and their respect for their quarry.

    I don't think that as hunters we should hide, but I do think that we need to act in a respectful manner and uphold our image as a responsible group of people. This pertains to our interactions with anti's, landowners, and law enforcement.

    I don't like canned hunts and I disagree with many of the gory kill shots that outdoor shows air...I even have a slight issue with trapping if you want to get right down to it, but, I will never tell these folks that they can't do these things. I am starting with myself and how I represent hunting, how I choose to pursue my game, and educating others around me about sound stewardship of our resources and rights. Indeed, we don't need to fractionalize ourselves as outdoorsmen, but we do need to be mindful of our image and show folks that sportsmen are the greatest conservationists that any natural resource has...since we have a more vested interest than any other party.

    A hunter that says that says "It's my right, and I'll do it however I want to and that's that, I don't care who's lookin" had better think about it when they rage at a hippie, a homosexual, or an antiwar demonstrator, or any other group they may have issue with...these things aren't illegal either, but often get a very strong response from opponents.

  14. #14

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    I think it would have a buch of variables, if I was sitting on a once in a lifetime tag, the last day of season, my last day able to hunt....etc. I might do the same. I think you have to exercise good tase.

    It is important to know your audience they are all on a bus together and their story could be different then yours and you could be in some trouble....funny how that can work. I personally would pass a shot at a black bear if a tour bus was watching, just because they're pretty abundant and it shows good taste, but if it was my once in a life time ram......I would shoot too, although, I would be SOOOO bummed that my SPECIAL hunt took place on the side of a road.

  15. #15
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default the situation will dictate

    I think that common sense should govern this situation.

    If you are hunting and/or stalking a animal and folks stop to watch you... then continue what you are doing. If you don't know folks are watching the animal.... continue what you are doing.

    If you are coming along and see people viewing a legal game animal. No, you should not shoot it in front of those people just because it is legal to pursue. You shouldn't take any animal that is in view of tourists/general public (i.e. in parks, in cruise ship lanes) when they are present or being guided.

    I think the situation will dictate, and a "resonable person" will make the right call based on that situation. I enjoy viewing animals just as much as hunting them. If I'm on a tour or just driving, I wouldn't want someone stopping and trying to shoot the animals I/we may be watching.

    Flip side --- if I am watching an animal and it happens to have a stalk being put on it, and the hunter is unaware I'm watching..... then I expect to see the animal be taken. I do not expect the hunter to wait until I'm done taking pictures or videoing.

    The non-hunter should respect the right of the hunter to pursue the game. The hunter should respect the right of the non-hunter to view the animal.
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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    Thumbs up Agreed. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick P View Post
    . . . what kind of image do we show the non hunting public? I dont have a TV, havent in almost a year, but I had one and had the outdoor life channel. Most of the programming was good but there were definatly afew shows I had a major problem with. Dose film of a man shooting an elephant at close range including blood spray help our cause? How about 5 guys in a duck blind blasting away at 2 malards as the guide yells "kill em"? Dose footage of 2 guys sitting in a pile of hundereds of doves in Mexico portray responsible ressource managment?
    The shows that combine quick shot editing and rock music with footage like this have more in comon with snuff films or music videos than the lifestyle I love. Even more repugnant are the "Ranch hunts" offered in many magazines. Just today I saw an add for a place in Texas that offers "exotic species hunts" Kudo and Spring Buck in Texas? Hunting animals in a inclousre that get there food at a feeder station is'nt hunting its killing. And we suport this stuff by not telling sponsers of programs that we dont like the way our sprot is being betrayed, or not telling folks who do "Ranch hunts" that they are not hunters they are just flat out dissgusting.

    I know this is going to be an unpopular veiw . . .
    It's not unpopular with me. . . I agree.

    That said, I'm a bit ambiguous about ranch hunts. Assuredly, most of what goes on in enclosed hunts is pretty repulsive, but what about the poor bugger who sits at a desk in Dallas all year? If that's all he can afford, hunts respectfully, goes for a clean kill, and uses the meat to feed his family, maybe those are redeeming considerations?


  17. #17
    Mark
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    Default I know of a humorous story about that in Alaska

    Perhaps 15 years ago or so a former co-worker (an Alaska Native who grew up in Anchorage) was road hunting the Denali Hwy for caribou. He came upon a vehicle stopped along the side of the road, and the occupants were standing near the car taking photos of a beautiful bull caribou. My friend stopped, got out of his vehicle, and walked up to the tourists. When they finished taking photos, he even asked them if they were finished with their photo session. They replied that they were.

    As they were loading back into their vehicle, my friend got his rifle out of his car, duly walked down off the side of the road, and shot the bull.

    The tourists were horrified. The left in a huff to find the authorities, and sure enough, came upon a Trooper. The trooper came to the scene, checked my friend's license and tag, congratulated him for his success and left.

    Win/Win. The tourists got their photos and my friend got his meat. It was all legal.

    Apparently the tourists didn't think of it that way, but.......................oh well.................

  18. #18
    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Perhaps 15 years ago or so a former co-worker (an Alaska Native who grew up in Anchorage) was road hunting the Denali Hwy for caribou. He came upon a vehicle stopped along the side of the road, and the occupants were standing near the car taking photos of a beautiful bull caribou. My friend stopped, got out of his vehicle, and walked up to the tourists. When they finished taking photos, he even asked them if they were finished with their photo session. They replied that they were.

    As they were loading back into their vehicle, my friend got his rifle out of his car, duly walked down off the side of the road, and shot the bull.

    The tourists were horrified. The left in a huff to find the authorities, and sure enough, came upon a Trooper. The trooper came to the scene, checked my friend's license and tag, congratulated him for his success and left.

    Win/Win. The tourists got their photos and my friend got his meat. It was all legal.

    Apparently the tourists didn't think of it that way, but.......................oh well.................
    Same thing happened to my step dad's coworker on the Glenn highway about 10 years ago except it was a bull moose and no state troopers.

    Tim

  19. #19
    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    I'm glad to see many points of views on this issue, the reason for me to bring this issue up is because, I enjoy archery hunting the Dalton HWY (Haul rd) I was lucky to draw a moose tag for that area (south of Coldfoot/north of Yukon River)this past season, however my deployment to Iraq cut the hunt short, only hunted the first week in Sept. It was still quite warm and there were still quite a bit of tourists, bicycle riders, and one Asian man pulling a cart that was literally walking the whole way to Deadhorse for reasons unknown, some of you I'm sure saw him. Anyway, when ever you stop to view wild game on the road, other cars or trucks going by are sure to stop to see what you are looking at, well i had come up to fish creek by myself and spotted 3 black bears of good size just cruising along, so I stepped out of my truck, already in full camo, strapped my day pack that had my bow on it and got my binos out to watch these bears to see if I could somehow put a stalk, I new it was tough, but it could be done, well it wasn't long before 4 to 5 vehicles stopped all non-hunters, and an elderly couple hopped out of their RV with their camera and started taking pictures, well the first thing I thought oh no, I got that "Busted" feeling and the one elderly lady comes up to me and says, your not going to kill those bears are you? I thought for a minute what would be the right thing to say...hmhmmmm, well I told her the truth, and said I would if I was fast enought to cut them off, after all, the vehicles sort of scared them off when they stopped. She said, that the state should not allow people to hunt off the road like that, she was from Ohio and new some people in the Alaska state Govt. I was respectful and kept my own opinions to myself. I kind of worry about the future of our hunting oppurtunity up there because I heard rumors of non-hunters messing with vehicles, and I plan to hunt the Haul road for many years to come with my kids so they can enjoy it too.

  20. #20
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    Shot a beautiful 53" 4 tine moose on the the Cantwell flats 10 years ago comming back from caribou hunting.There were 2 cars pulled over with tri pods taking pictures and I marched right out and harvested my moose in front of them!

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