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Thread: tripple 7 max load?

  1. #1
    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    Default tripple 7 max load?

    Is 3 pellets too much? I just got the F&G muzzleloader packet and they say 100 grains is a max charge. I cant really tell on the hodgon website. I kinda think they are saying 100 grains is max too. I have shot 150 grains a couple of times. That produces a whack! Im shooting 300 grain 45 cal hornady sabots.
    Oh yeah, Im shooting an encore

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    Default The gun knows

    It depends on what your gun is rated for. Mine says 150 grains of pyrodex etc..... so it's safe but indeed, it wacks. I found it hard to shoot due to discomfort and on top of that I think it threw the bullets around too. I went back to 100 and had great performance shooting 240 grain handcast 45's...this was in a t/c black diamond.

  3. #3

    Default

    I'd check with the manufacturer of your gun. There are too many variables between brands and models to generalize when dealing with max loads. Then again, there's the question of whether or not all that 150 grains is burning inside the barrel, or in fact pushing some of it out before it ignites. That's very often the case with shorter barrels. There comes a point that you get very little extra velocity for all the extra expense and recoil. I've got one 54 that's rated for 120 grains by the manufacturer, but it's got a 22" barrel and velocity maxes out at around 90 grains, even as recoil and noise go way up at 120. Not coincidence I think, but I also get the best accuracy with that 90 grain charge.

  4. #4
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default 777 is hot!

    Check the ratings of the pellets. A 50 grain 777 pellet is equivalent to 50 grains of blackpowder, but only roughly 30 grains of 777 loose (it's on the box and I'm trying to recall out of memory). Meaning 150 grains (3 777 pellets) is equivalent to +-90 grains of 777 (loose), but 150 grains of blackpowder. 777 is very hot. I currently shoot a 100 grain 777 loose charge in a T/C Hawken 50 cal. and a Lyman GPH 50 cal (which should be equivalent to +-160 grains of blackpowder). I get clean patches on the second or third wipe between shots. So my guns are burning this load very well, or at least to my liking. I have plenty of velocity and accuracy with no need to load any heavier, it doesn't have a lot of kick, but these aren't exactly light guns. A three pellet 777 charge in an Omega X7 will definitely let your shoulder know it's there. A straight 150 grain charge of 777 loose is too hot for my tastes. My gun would probably shoot it, but I don't need to find out.

    However, 777 leaves a pretty good ring in the bore of an Omega after a two or three shots. So much, in fact, if your not careful you will seat your sabot on the ring and not the charge (if you don't clean it regularly). I read somewhere about using 410 primers instead of regular shotshell primers to lessen the blast... don't know if that works or not.

    The gun manufacturer should give you max loads in blackpowder grains. Just bump that against the 777 to blackpowder grain to grain ratio that should be on the container.
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

  5. #5
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default check out this site

    http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

    May not relate to the pellet shooter, but is good info for the loose shooters. I couldn't remember exactly what ratio was in my previous post and felt guilty about giving in-accurate information.
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

  6. #6
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up 777 Primers

    If you get some 777 209 primers that suppose to cure the crud ring!

    100 grains is all you need of 777 2F with a 300 gr...........good 100 yard load. I like the 300 Nosler Part or Barnes MZ in my MK85.

    I weigh all my loads @ 70 grains on a Dig Scale with the 777 2F.
    Alaska

  7. #7
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default 777 209 primers.... that's what I used

    I shot the 777 209 primers with a two pellet 777 load. Had a huge crud ring.... this is how I found out you can actually seat the sabot on the ring and not the load. Maybe it was an isolated incident on my part and not indicative of the majority of shooters. (also was wet patching between shots as well... had to take a brush to bust up the crud buildup)
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

  8. #8
    Member alaska bush man's Avatar
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    Thumbs up 777 Primers

    It has been a long, long time since 209 shotshell primers were first used in muzzleloaders. The distinction of being the "first," I believe, goes back to the Michigan-developed Wolverine that, while innovative, was well ahead of the true need for 209 ignition systems. Alternatives to percussion cap ignition have been around for some time as well; notable being the large rifle primers used in Knight's Magnum Elite "Posi-Fire" ignition system of a decade ago.

    Pellets changed the dynamic quite a bit. Once Pyrodex pellets caught on, the inadequacy of #11 caps became well known. Even though Pyrodex pellets have an "igniter pad" of good old black powder on one side, they don't always get loaded down the muzzle in the right direction. Many folks have gotten weary of misfires, and equally disgusted with flaming scopes from open-action frontloaders.

    When Triple Se7en loose powder came on the scene around 2002 promising (and delivering) better than black powder velocities, T7 pellets soon followed. With the rise in popularity of Triple Se7en in general, and Triple Se7en pellets in particular, 209 shotshell primer use became close to mandatory. Triple Se7en pellets have always been recommended for use with 209 primers only, though musket caps usually light them off with little problem. Musket caps in inline rifles unfortunately light off scopes with equal ability.

    Triple Se7en powder from Hodgdon is here, and it is here to stay. The beef against T7 has been the nasty, hard, slag-like fouling crud (the 'crud ring') that forms in front of some, but not all 209-fired breechplugs. The longer, cooler nippled breechplugs (Knight Rifles' bolt actions) have given markedly less hard taffy-apple crud formation for me than some of the others. The T/C Contender G2 in .45 caliber has been the worst of them all for me.

    To attempt to address this fouling crud issue, a variety of attempts have been made, most of them fairly clumsy in practice, or less than satisfying. I used Remington .410 shotshell primers which helped with T7 loose powder, but were not reliable with T7 pellets. Winchester marketed 209 "muzzleloading primers," but all they were was standard W209 primers in more expensive packaging. Remington tried to make a quick buck with their "Kleenbore Muzzleloading primers," but that failed just as quickly. It was apparent, at least to me, that Remington did inadequate testing. The "Kleenbore primers" were far worse than the Rem. 209-4 shotshell primers that at least partially helped the crud situation, if only with loose T7 powder. Remington's dedicated "Kleenbore" muzzleloading primers just plain did not work.

    Finally, progress has been made. It didn't happen in a good weekend; it happened over a period of two years with a huge amount of development by Olin-Winchester. Though the 209 battery cup anvil primer external dimensions were not changed, the primer compound was developed from scratch. "Everything on the inside is a brand new mixture," say my friends at Olin Corporation. That certainly seems to be the case.

    There were multiple goals in the development of the Triple Se7en primer: eliminate or at least dramatically reduce the crud ring from Triple Se7en (as well as Pyrodex) in the majority of 209 primed muzzleloaders. While they were at it, they sought to maintain complete reliability when used with Triple Se7en pellets. Shotshell primers have been a known quantity for a long time (in shotshells), but Olin-Winchester wanted to go farther than the previous generations of 209 primers.

    They took inline muzzleloaders, loaded them with Triple Se7en pellets, projectiles, and their experimental primers and froze the entire unit to minus 50 degrees F. Then, it had to fire T7 pellets without fail. The also experimented with flame temperature, gas generation, and other variables controllable by the primer energetic to get the clean ignition yet reliable extreme performance they wanted.

    Accuracy was also important. As a matter of fact, sources report that H. P. Gregory set records just this year at the NMLRA Spring Shoot using these new Triple Se7en primers and Triple Se7en loose powder.

    How do they rate in "strength"? As this is a new chemical formulation, it don't believe it is possible to directly compare these primers to older generation primer mixtures. Based on noise and flame output, they seem a bit softer than W209 shotshell primers, yet clearly stronger than the .410 shotshell primers I compared them against. I found no issue with these primers setting off pellets.

    Are they cleaner? Without a doubt, they are radically cleaner than standard 209 primers. To give myself something visual to easily compare, I fired a number of standard 209 shotshell primers in Knight red Full Plastic Jackets. Inside the spent jackets, without exception, was greasy, black, scummy material that eventually forms hard carbon crud inside your breechplug, or perhaps in your action.

    I then fired the new Triple Se7en primers the same way. Visual inspection of the inside of the red plastic jackets showed them bright red and clean, looking as through a primer had never been fired through them at all. Obviously, these new primers are not laying down anywhere near the scummy residue that standard 209 shotshell primers do.

    With the initial testing I've done so far, I can say that the Winchester T7 primers do significantly reduce fouling build-up in muzzleloaders that have that issue, and further reduce carbon build-up inside breech plugs. It reduced the small, but manageable T7 "stuff" in a Knight rifle to practically nothing, and significantly reduces internal carbon build up in the Savage 10ML-II as well. Individual results will vary by make of rifle, breechplug design, and specific powder charge. Try them yourself, and you'll soon be a believer.

    The Triple Se7en 209 muzzleloading primer is the most significant advance in inline muzzleloading ignition since the 209 primer itself first gained prominence. It is easily distinguishable from regular 209's with its black primer face so there can be no confusion. It is, to my knowledge, the first new priming compound designed specifically for muzzleloading, and it is a winner. The outside dimensions are virtually identical to standard W209 primers, so it can be used in place of a standard Winchester 209 in any muzzleloader designed for 209 primers.

    Hat's off to Olin-Winchester; with my highest recommendation.
    Alaska

  9. #9
    Member akndres's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for the info

    excellent post Alaska bush man.... very informative and appreciated on this end!
    "The rich... who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own excellence, these are the real enemies of game".... Theodore Roosevelt's A Principle of the Hunt

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