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Thread: WACH out of Kotz

  1. #1
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    Default WACH out of Kotz

    Anyone know that if I think it is Prop 85 dont pass, non-residents out of Kotz will go to one caribou. Looking for the rest of the story, heard that in 2007 there was a one year extention on shooting bou. I remember when it was 5 bou per non-resident, from that data I've collected there has not been a big increase in number of Bou taken. Just looking for some more answers.

    Terry

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    it looks like the proposal didnt pass now nonresidents only 1 caribou, i know some guys booked hunts for 2 caribou now its one and the outfitter is not charging less and wont retrn fees paid up front if they cancel,, dont really understand the issue of 1 per nonresident in a herd of 600,000 how many nonresidents hunt up there and how many extra animals would be taken if the limit was 2 ea.......

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Too much meat in Kotz dumpsters. Too much spoiled meat attempted to be given away. Too many complaints from area residents on waste of meat. Bag limit reduced to one for non res to cut down on meat waste. It wasn't a biological decision.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Too much meat in Kotz dumpsters. Too much spoiled meat attempted to be given away. Too many complaints from area residents on waste of meat. Bag limit reduced to one for non res to cut down on meat waste. It wasn't a biological decision.
    Boy! Is that a crock of crap!

    I'm sitting here with deposit checks on my desk for 4 hunters (mine included) ready to mail them up to the flight service/outfitter we had chosen to take us up into 23 for a week-long caribou hunt. I guess he won't be getting our money unless he realizes the "hunt" just became a lot less valuable to us.

    Didn't the BOG even consider the outfits trying to make a living up there?

    The "spoiled meat" comment is BS. Don't Alaska already have strict laws on that? I'm sure I read about that in the regs.

    My party is very experienced at taking care of meat in the field. I've never lost the meat from a bull elk, which is a heck of a lot bigger than a caribou, and we tend to shoot them in much warmer weather when bow hunting.

    Why not prosecute the individuals responsible, instead of punishing the rest of us non-residents that like to bring our money up to the great state of AK and the flight services trying to make a livinig up there (where I understand AV-gas is around $9 per gallon).

    Please excuse the spelling, I'm pretty upset right now. If I end up cancelling my hunt I can use my airline tickets to/from Anchorage and Kotz to start the fire tomorrow morning.

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    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default the way it is

    This was bound to happen, way too many people wasting meat out of KOTZ, infact across the whole state. Most hunters dont want much of the meat, they take some of the really good cuts and leave the rest behind. All they really want is the Trophy.

    My suggestion was to make ALL hunters take ALL their meat back with them. If a hunter from Fairbanks goes any place, not just KOTZ they have to bring all the meat back to Fairbanks with them. If a hunter from Maine shoots a bou (or 2) then they have to take all the meat back to Maine with them. That would stop all the meat dumping that is going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akhunter02 View Post
    This was bound to happen, way too many people wasting meat out of KOTZ, infact across the whole state.
    So, like I suggested in my other post - prosecute those who wantenly waste meat. The laws are already on the books, no?
    Most hunters dont want much of the meat, they take some of the really good cuts and leave the rest behind. All they really want is the Trophy.
    Is that really a fair statement? I haven't been there and seen it, perhaps you have, but I'd argue that MOST hunters aren't like that.

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    Default Yes I think so

    I think thats a fair statement. I have a good friend that works the Airport in Fairbanks, he sees a lot of hunters flying back home with racks and little to no meat, and very few with more than 2 containers of meat. He tells me about the rotting meat on the tarmac, but its funny how nice all the racks look and then placed on the plane.

    I know he does not see all the hunters flying out of FB but Id argue that he sees a good percentage of them.

    I also know that there are plenty of good ethical hunters out there who take care of the meat in the field and take the majority of the meat home with them.

    How much meat do you take home with you?

    I met a hunter from the CT, we were both waiting for a bush plane at a remote strip. He did nothing but complain about having to take a whole moose back with him, I offered to take some of his meat, he then asked how much I was willing to give him for it. I told him to keep it.

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    Member gusuk1's Avatar
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    Unhappy the truth is the truth

    [QUOTE=akhunter02;80591]This was bound to happen, way too many people wasting meat out of KOTZ, infact across the whole state. Most hunters dont want much of the meat, they take some of the really good cuts and leave the rest behind. All they really want is the Trophy.

    we have seen this in the bay area as well,one of the main problems is there is not enough brown shirts to cover the vast areas being hunted.its not their job to be dumbster watchers either.as a guide i take 90% of meat harvested and give it to my wifes large clan.one reason for some not wanting to ship meat home is the 1.00 a pound.also have seen some meat come through this village with other outside outfitters that was not fit for a dog--shot during the rut,covered with tundra and dirt.grant it it there are some that take care of their meat but that seems to be rare.as the regs read all edible meat must be taken out of the field but does not say what kind of shape it has to be in and some just don't care what it looks it and that has punished those who do.

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    Default Meat IS a TROPHY!

    I'm one of the four Carl V mentioned in his group. I have never had the opportunity to hunt in Alaska and while the Cape and Antlers are part of the thrill of the hunt, I'm looking to bring back as much meat as possible! I enjoy sharing the meat with friends and neighbors as much as showing off the pictures or the mount! The cost of shipping the meat did not faze me; I have already bought a second freezer with the hops of filling it with Caribou meat! It is really sad that people have been so unappreciative and abusive of the meat issue. While I can understand the local opinion of use from the "lower 48"... it does not apply to all and those of us with ethics are the ones suffering. I don't know that I will ever get the opportunity to hunt Alaska again and I want to make this hunt all I can!

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    Default 1 caribou

    Hey Carl,

    As a former north Michigander myself, I would say although it is only 1 caribou, it would probably still be worth your money and the outfitter isn't to blame - his costs remain pretty constant I would bet. That said, truthfully, the Quebec option is a good one - you can get two caribou, the accomodations will be nicer, logistics are easier, the hunting is easier (maybe even better) for caribou IMHO, and you can drive most of the way there, and the horns are as nice from what I have seen - ROAD TRIP! Anyway sorry about your hunt.

    Gooch

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    after making a few phone calls about this subject with various employees of fish and game the one comment i keep hearing is the 2006 season was extremely good for meat removed from field and virtually no meat in dumpsters or complaints of rotten meat donated..... to bad idaho didnt ban nonresidents i would be able to shoot 3 bulls instead of 2. in a since the locals of alaska ( especially of unit 23}are pushing to remove all nonresident hunting from the area, it has been stated in meetings , in the airports and in the media from what i have gathered researching this subject. i know a total of 9 people that have cacelled caribou huts this fall and are booking with safari nordik.......

  12. #12
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    Default meat waste

    I would agree witht he posters that said there is meat wasted. Once a hunter sees how much it's going to cost them to ship all that hamburger back to the states it becomes alot less attractive and finds it's way to the dumpsters. Not to mention trying to keep a caribou you've taken on the first 2 days ofa 6 day hunt from spoiling in the field can prove difficult.
    Of course it's easy to pull the trigger on a smaller bull early in the hunt for guaranteed meat and then go for the big bull the rest of the hunt, but not everyone is as well educated in field care as they should be and all of a sudden you've got 100 lb's of spoiled meat before the outfitter even get's back to pick you up.
    I know it's easy for us to say that that would never happen, but the truth of the matter is ALOT of hunters don't understand the BUSH hunt where they can't just load up thier whitetail and bring it back home 2 hours away and have it in the freezer/ cooler later that night.
    hunters need to be better educated well before the hunt as to how to handle these situations so they are prepared for the worst.
    I may get flamed for this, but i also think that the whole 2 caribou thing is overblown, once you start hunting you will find that caribou hunting is no easy task and taking one mature bull is hard enough let alone 2. times that by a party of 4 and now you are EXPECTING to take 8 caribou and keep them in good shape. Tough stuff.
    Just my take.
    Justin
    Justin

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    Thumbs down Remember the goal behind all regulations...

    That pertain to 23 are aimed at eliminating nonresident hunters. Nonresident is used in the true sense of the word here. All people that do not live in the villages of unit 23. There are a ton of ways to help people handle the meat they bring out of the bush. It does not suit the agenda to help nonresidents get their meat home in good condition. No real services, meat lockers, etc. I dare anyone here to go to Kotz and try to open up one of these facilities. I expect you will be chased out of town. Chased out by the natives and the bio together. There is no sound biological evidence to reduce the harvest but believe me if they could it would be closed to all nonresidents if they had their way. As the BOG continues to act you are seing a wide path of destruction to all our rights to enjoy Alaska in a respectful and ecological way. Politics and the views and desires of a few are being served at the expense of us all, residents and nonresidents. People will continue to hunt out of Kotz so decisions there should be made to accommidate hunters so that things get done right. It is wrong to use game laws to isolate these communities. From what I understand the caribou herd there is above carrying capacity already. If this is true why wouldn't increasing the harvest be in order? I believe that a contolled and respectful harvest can be achieved without sticking heads in the sand and trying to control the situation with arbitrary game laws. The troopers in Kotz miss nothing!! Believe me if your meat comes in dirty, spoiled, or short you will get caught. So I don't believe that there is a ton of game violations occuring there. If people there don't want the meat why don't they tell the transporters to make the hunters take it home? Once again, it doesn't suit their agenda. Last year my buddies were approached by a trooper there who asked them if he could have their meat. And said he would take their meat every year if they wanted to give it up. I'm sorry about this wandering diatribe, but it's said for a guy my age to sit and watch things get twisted up so much wondering all the while if the true Alaska will ever make it through. Jesse

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    Sure would be nice if the guides that I have spoken too would come forward on this thread and share with all what is actually behind this decision. Its like guides complaining about the numbers of sheep, caribou and Moose down to predation, wanting the board to do something as they are not making the same kind of money and many big money paying people not getting there animals. Then they turn around and block attempts
    that make sense for removing the animals, " hurt their livelyhood".
    Though I know several guides and do not feel that all guides are this way I will say that many would like to seal all of Alaska game up for their area. They would like no one especially residents hunting in their area. One quick example is the one in the Cordova area chasing people out at gun point.
    Two in Kodiak one is no longer in business. I actually listened to tesimony against him in which he flat out lied saying he did not do the things many were testifying seeing him do. Its become a money grubing world and many have come into our awesome State to stake their claim. Many pay the super high fees because they can further supporting the cause.

    The caribou herd in question will crash and everyone knows it. So what is criminal guys? Watching or knowing hundreds of thousands of animals are dieing a slow lingering death and everything going to waste or seeing some hundreds of pounds of waste in a dumpster. Neither is right and the dumster thing is very easy to deal with. The die off I personally think is a moral travesty.

    Neal

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    Default 378..

    sorry, 358 I mean I am not a registered guide and will never be one. I'm just a guy who loves to come up and hunt whenever I can. And I find it easier to justify three trips a year by the simple virtue that i'm assisting others not myself. My very first hunt in AK was a drop hunt out of Kotz. Eric flew me in and I had a blast. But I was soon aware that things there were not as great as they seemed. Believe me my stepgrandmother is Inupiaq and lives on a homestead near Tok. My Grandfather and her won't allow me to hunt near them beacause of the grief they will get from their neighbors for allowing me to recreate on their ground. So it's not just the guides who try to lock up the resources. The simple truth in my opinion is that the Bio in Kotz needs to get out and let people with sound ideas start making decisions. As for guides chasing others out, I have seen this. I am aware of things that happen out there worse than anything ever talked about on this forum (that I'm aware of) It is great that they have started to really crack down on that stuff. I don't really care to take more than one caribou myself anyway, but I think it's just another bad law. Jesse

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    Default Change for no good reason

    Thats what Im hearing here, I dont believe this to be true, over the past 5 or more years there has been a real problem with wanten waste of meat, that is a fact, one year (2006) of reduced waste is not a reason to change course.

    "The heard is going to crash, everyone knows it" No everyone does not know it! Its more likely to crash due to over harvest than reaching carrying capacity. Look at like the Mulchatna area, too many hunters taking too many Bou and now that area sucks. Kotz could be next?

    "Guides and Air Taxis are going to loose business" Your only kidding yourself if you think thats true, most if not all are booked years out. Try and get a charter within 6 months of a hunt, not going to happen, at least not with any decent charter/guide/outfitter. 99% of us who fly out every year book at least a year in advance.

    "Locals want the are to themselves" Well Duh!! Who doesnt? If you could lockup your white tail area back home would you do it? How do you feel when you head to your tree stand only to find another hunter in the area? Its human nature to want an area to themselves. Everytime I fly out Im praying that I dont see another hunter in the area Ive been hunting for years. Even though I hold no claim to that area, I still feel that way.

    Someone posted "go to Canada and hunt", I agree, that is a viable option, so those of you who are really bent over this change can most certainly head in that direction, it wont cost the Alaskan economy anything because there are a dozen waiting to take your place.

  17. #17
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    Default Missing opportunity

    It sounds to me that Kotz is missing an opportunity. Why not set up a small processing station with freezers and packing ability. Then anyone one that hunts will have a place to have the meat processed, frozen and if they desire to donate the meat, the processing center can be the distrubution for the meat. I am sure that there are a few villages in the surronding area that could benefit from the meat too.

    Sounds like a opportunity missed.

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  18. #18

    Default one in the Cordova area chasing people out at gun point.

    same-day sam?

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    Default There is a way!

    Hey guys, I was in Kotz just last year. Personally, all I would want to deal with is one bou and that is what I shot. I took all the meat from my med. sized bull (bones too because of time restrictions) and shipped "Gold Rush" out of the AA freight office. I bought two fish boxes and packed them with every piece of meat cut from my bou. They freeze the meat over night in Kotz then AA ships to Anchorage. From their FedEx takes over and ships to your house. I flew out on Saturday and my meat was to my house on Tuesday. It was still cold but not frozen.

    This was my first bou and I wanted all the meat. I am glad I took every piece I could cut from my bou, law or not, because it is excellent tasting. This was not cheap but certainly a responsible way for a hunter to get meat from Kotz home. Unless a guy was stuck in the bush in warm temps, I cannot see a reason to not take it home. Hopefully those that dump their meat are victims of no refrigeration and lost their meat in spite of making an effort to save it. I know if I had shot my bou on Monday or Tuesday I would have had issues. It was 60+ degrees on those days. There was no cold stream close by to place the meat in to cool (plastic bags of course). I actually shot my bou on Thursday and the temps were from 25 to 35 degrees so no issue. I met a guy in the Kotz airport who lost the meat from two bou because of the temps (he shot them on Monday) and the fact that his guide did not stop by until Thursday.

    No hunter wants to hear about waste, it is a shame.

    It seems hard to understand why the native people donít embrace hunters when you first go up there (it was my first trip). Perhaps it is a cultural difference and that they have a great sensitivity to the natural things from generations of sustenance living. Most of us did not grow up that way but learned our appreciation as we grew up. Maybe if both sides understood each other better fewer assumptions would be made. I was aware that some of the native folks I met in Kotz seemed to have a preconceived opinion of me when we first met. However, I tried to be especially polite so they would have a better impression of hunters.

    If they changed the law to one bou I will still go back. I do think it is sad if they are changing this for the wrong reasons.

    Bill


  20. #20
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    Default WACH and caribou

    Letís keep in mind that is cost a bunch to operate out of Kotz and the transporters are not charging you guys based upon the number of animals that you take but on the number of hours of flight time it takes to get you back to the airport. Their hands are tied and the cost of fuel is the blame. I just bought a drum of gas for my sno-gos yesterday and it is now up to $4.39 a gal in bulk and over $5.50 at the pump, and we have it easy, in the villages it is costing as much as $8.00 a gal!

    It is an issue of economics up here but the bigger issue of wasted meat is the driving force. I have a client from the mid-west who asked me to arrange for some one to take his meat as it was too expensive to take it back home. I told of the issues of meat and the local population and if he did not want to take the meat he should not squeeze the trigger. This made him mad but is important that we respect the resource not just the rack. I helped a friend from Denver ship his rack and meat home last fall. The rack cost him almost $350 to ship and the meat which was in excess of 200 pounds cost him about Ĺ the cost of the rack. Do the math guys, the rack is what cost to ship, not the meat and besides the rack is so tough to chew!

    We have lots of big healthy animals but WACH is headed for a crash that is for sure. We canít just keep growing!


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    Last edited by Gulkana Rafting; 03-23-2007 at 13:22. Reason: spelling error

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