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Thread: 10mm case failure...Kaboom!

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    Default 10mm case failure...Kaboom!

    Had a first for me today...one of my handloads caused a failure of a Starline case in my G20. It blew out the magazine and broke the trigger and slide stop and bruised my trigger finger. Something hit my cheek near my nose and drew blood....not much but if it had hit my eye it would have been a problem.

    The load was 6.0 gr Universal under a 180 gr jacketed Remington. According to Hodgdon, 6.4 gr is max.

    I double checked my powder measure and pulled about 15 bullets and weighed the charge and all were 6.0 gr. I'm not blaming Starline, but it is pretty **** hard to get 12 grains of Universal in a 10mm case so I don't have an explanation for what happened. I fired about 20 rounds of the same batch of reloads in my G21 with a BarSto 10mm conversion barrel with no incident.

    A few months ago we had a Remington bulk 22 LR blow the top off the slide on a Walther P22 with a suppressor. Case failed right in front of the rim. Remington said their ammo is not designed for use with a suppressor and Walther said it is Remington's fault....gun is now an example of poor quality or workmanship....either Remington's or Walther's.

    Bottom line, wear safety glasses when you shoot anything....they will save your eyes!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Bottom line, wear safety glasses when you shoot anything....they will save your eyes!!
    Sound advice.
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

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    Could have been a powder bridge inside your measure, you get a round with 4g and 2g sticks . . . next round gets the stuck 2g plus the 6g from that pull of the lever. You wouldn’t likely notice the light one and the heavy one is a shocker.

    Also could have been a stuffed bullet, as the round chambers the bullet catches and gets pushed into the case. With the bullet stuffed the case volume is decreased causing an over pressure blowout at the feed ramp.

    Eye protection is a must, I wouldn’t have a right eye had I not had some glasses on when I kaboomed a 38. Glad you are okay!
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    Hmmm.... Interesting. You could still have had an excess charge in that one case, this is the most likely cause. It is possible. Did you look at every charged case under good light? Just as Andy said......

    Also you said case failure......That doesn't necessarily mean the case was defective or of inferior material. You could have had an excess pressure load for several reasons.

    Question.....does the Bar Sto barrel have a fully supported chamber? Fully supported to the web of the case?

    What does the blown case look like? Does it have a crescent blow out on one side just in front of the case web?

    Just curious. What would you be saying if this was factory ammo?

    Also .....what loading set up are you using.

    You do need to understand that a suppressor does increase peak pressure in any firearm. Gas operated rifles rifles have an adjustment for when such devices are installed. Did you have a can on the ten?
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    Default or maybe just a bad case

    By coincidnce I had a case failure last week in my .44 Mag that caught my attention as it was out of the ordinary.

    Instead of the normal case failure mode of splitting at the mouth this one had a split just above the rim that was around 1/4" long up the side of the case. The mouth and the rest of the case was fine and there were no signs of excessive pressure. I won't have noticed it except the case was bit harder to extract than the other in the cylinder - similar to what occures when you get a split mouth.

    Of course the case was fully supported in a revolver. Had the same failure occured in an autoloader it would have released a lot of gas into the gun like the subject 10mm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Hmmm.... Interesting. You could still have had an excess charge in that one case, this is the most likely cause. It is possible. Did you look at every charged case under good light? Just as Andy said......

    Also you said case failure......That doesn't necessarily mean the case was defective or of inferior material. You could have had an excess pressure load for several reasons.

    Question.....does the Bar Sto barrel have a fully supported chamber? Fully supported to the web of the case?

    What does the blown case look like? Does it have a crescent blow out on one side just in front of the case web?

    Just curious. What would you be saying if this was factory ammo?

    Also .....what loading set up are you using.

    You do need to understand that a suppressor does increase peak pressure in any firearm. Gas operated rifles rifles have an adjustment for when such devices are installed. Did you have a can on the ten?


    I was using a Dillon 550B with the same die head and powder measure I always use for that load. The chance of a double charge is slim to none IMHO. No sign of pressure on the rest of the case. Primer was not found due to shooting in grass. Case had an 1/16" hole, shorta round blown out of the bottom which is why it blew down into the mag well and ruined the trigger. It was not like the typical 40 S&W case failures.

    Failure of factory ammo...what is factory ammo but rimfire stuff. Everthing I shoot is handloads except some Wolf in the AR's and AK's some times. No can on the 10mm...I am a Class 7/SOT manufacturer so I have some time behind suppressors. We probably shoot 12K to 15K rounds of suppressed ammo a year...mostly 22LR and 9mm subsonic with some 5.56 and 7.62x39 thrown in. I also shoot all my TCU (6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm) calibers, Whisper and 6mm/.223 with a suppressor. I also have a really neat NEF 44 Mag rifle with a suppressor that shoots 320 grain at about 1050 FPS and has a big whollop at 100 yds which is about as far as it will shoot without a mortor sight. Sorry...got distracted.

    BarSto barrel probably supports more than the stock Glock barrel but I have never had any problems with the G20 before with the same load...maybe 800 rounds or so over the last few years.

    I still have no idea what caused it except maybe weak brass...those things do happen....still a first for me after 50 years of reloading.

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    Was the brass well used? Wondering if maybe well used brass had developed a weakness/thinning along the lower from where it has been over the feed ramp.

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    No Sir, it was new brass (unfired) purchased in a batch of 500 about 4 years ago from Midway if I recall correctly. I don't shoot the 10mm that much so I have been using that batch of brass for loads that could be used for hunting. I used the new brass since it was already primed. The die set is Lee carbide 3 die set with factory crimp die in the last station.

    I do Glock frame mods, grip reductions, stippling and other Glock work and I had cut the grip on the G20 down to the length of a G29 making a "long slide" G29 of sorts to make the gun easier to carry in an IWB or pan cake holster and had not finished the grip entirely. I loaded some 50 rounds of ammo to check the grip feel of the new grip contour using the same dies and powder measure I always use for 10mm. I threw 2 charges and both weighed out to 6.0 grains of Universal with a 180 gr bullet and I loaded the 50 rounds. I put 5 rounds in the G29 mag and went outside to fire them and see how the new grip contour felt.....first one went Kaboom. There was no modification to the gun other than the grip, extended mag release and extended slide stop.

    I'm using a Lee disk powder measure with the die set up since it is so easy to change the powder charges by just changing the disc. I since I do change the disc from time to time, I ALWAYS check the powder measure by dropping a few loads onto the scale to make sure I have the correct disc in place for the load I want to put together. I checke the load twice on this occasion and the powder tomake sure it was Universal and checked my log book to verify this is the correct load for the 180 gr jacketed bullet and all was fine. After the Kaboom, I went back and dropped 5 or 6 more charges and they all weighed out to 6.0 grains.

    I really wanted to believe it was a reloading accident when it happened since it was the first round I fired but I can find no evidence to substantiate that idea. As best I can tell, I did nothing wrong with the reloads and I posted this because I wanted folks to know that I had what I beleive was a material failure in a case.

    Maybe 10 years ago I had a Remington Factory load in .375 H&H fired in a Sako Carbine fail. The side of the case split at the shoulder and other than hard extraction there was no problem. I called Remington and they happily replaced 10 boxes I had left over from when I had a sporting goods/ gun shop in Homer in the mid to late 80's. That the only failure of center fire factory ammo. Stuff happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    Had a first for me today...one of my handloads caused a failure of a Starline case in my G20. It blew out the magazine and broke the trigger and slide stop and bruised my trigger finger. Something hit my cheek near my nose and drew blood....not much but if it had hit my eye it would have been a problem.

    The load was 6.0 gr Universal under a 180 gr jacketed Remington. According to Hodgdon, 6.4 gr is max.

    I double checked my powder measure and pulled about 15 bullets and weighed the charge and all were 6.0 gr. I'm not blaming Starline, but it is pretty **** hard to get 12 grains of Universal in a 10mm case so I don't have an explanation for what happened. I fired about 20 rounds of the same batch of reloads in my G21 with a BarSto 10mm conversion barrel with no incident.

    A few months ago we had a Remington bulk 22 LR blow the top off the slide on a Walther P22 with a suppressor. Case failed right in front of the rim. Remington said their ammo is not designed for use with a suppressor and Walther said it is Remington's fault....gun is now an example of poor quality or workmanship....either Remington's or Walther's.

    Bottom line, wear safety glasses when you shoot anything....they will save your eyes!!


    Glock Ka Booms are fairly common. Google Glock KA Booms and you will find a lot of info about this unpleasant occurrance

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwp500 View Post
    Glock Ka Booms are fairly common. Google Glock KA Booms and you will find a lot of info about this unpleasant occurrance
    Yeah, maybe, the cartridge fired, before it was fully chambered.

    Out of battery? Is that what you call it? I think I heard that Glocks can shoot "out of battery". or somethin like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I think I heard that Glocks can shoot "out of battery". or somethin like that.
    I'm pretty sure its impossible for such a thing to happen. You press the muzzle against something soft to push the slide back ever so slightly and....no dice....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwp500 View Post
    Glock Ka Booms are fairly common. Google Glock KA Booms and you will find a lot of info about this unpleasant occurrance
    Hater......

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    Quote Originally Posted by hunt_ak View Post
    I'm pretty sure its impossible for such a thing to happen. You press the muzzle against something soft to push the slide back ever so slightly and....no dice....
    I'm not going to say it is impossible but I will say that any locked breech semi-auto handgun should not fire unless it is fully "in battery", meaning the slide and barrel are locked....unless there is wear in the gun to the point where it's mechanical features are compromised. A Blow-back action is an entirely different story. My G20 is not worn and probably has less than 2K rounds thru it.

    I'm not sure there has ever been a proven conclusion on why some G22's in 40 S&W have case failures. The general belief is the unsupported portion of the case just above the ramp is allowed to expand more than the rim or the supported portion of the case which is actually inside the chamber and there is a case faulure in the bottom side of the brass. It is possible that caused my case failure, however I think there must be a material failure in the case in order for that to happen. If it were a design problem you would see it happen in all Glocks and most other handguns of that design.

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    Except that the 10mm operates at a higher pressure that most automatics and most of the 10mms are Glocks.

    It is interesting that the .357 SIG operates at a higher pressure than the 10mm - approx. 40k compared to 30K psi - but they use a small pistol primer in that one - perhaps to give the SIG round a stronger case head?

    Perhaps the 10mm needs to go to a small pistol primer also. The .357 mag started out with a large primer and went to a small primer and it that cartridge has worked out well for many decades now. Some of the .45 ammo is also now being made with a small primer for a variety of reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    thru it.

    I'm not sure there has ever been a proven conclusion on why some G22's in 40 S&W have case failures. The general belief is the unsupported portion of the case just above the ramp is allowed to expand more than the rim or the supported portion of the case which is actually inside the chamber and there is a case faulure in the bottom side of the brass. It is possible that caused my case failure, however I think there must be a material failure in the case in order for that to happen. If it were a design problem you would see it happen in all Glocks and most other handguns of that design.
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    Good Point!!

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    Thanks for the new info. Yes agree, the can shoots are fun.

    Well yes it could have been bad brass. I wonder here. You found the case with the hole, right? why did the primer leave the pocket? Your speculation is that the case head (and possibly all of the case) was too soft annealed and the case head expanded under normal 10 mm pressure? What do you think the case would look like if pressure was say about 50,000 psi? Blown primer and ruptured at the unsupported portion, right? If the case web was too thin and the unsupported part was excessive, why would it blow the primer?

    Just some thoughts about it. I cannot know the reason but if you have the case, it can tell the story in the right hands.




    Quote Originally Posted by Lowrider View Post
    I was using a Dillon 550B with the same die head and powder measure I always use for that load. The chance of a double charge is slim to none IMHO. No sign of pressure on the rest of the case. Primer was not found due to shooting in grass. Case had an 1/16" hole, shorta round blown out of the bottom which is why it blew down into the mag well and ruined the trigger. It was not like the typical 40 S&W case failures.

    Failure of factory ammo...what is factory ammo but rimfire stuff. Everthing I shoot is handloads except some Wolf in the AR's and AK's some times. No can on the 10mm...I am a Class 7/SOT manufacturer so I have some time behind suppressors. We probably shoot 12K to 15K rounds of suppressed ammo a year...mostly 22LR and 9mm subsonic with some 5.56 and 7.62x39 thrown in. I also shoot all my TCU (6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm) calibers, Whisper and 6mm/.223 with a suppressor. I also have a really neat NEF 44 Mag rifle with a suppressor that shoots 320 grain at about 1050 FPS and has a big whollop at 100 yds which is about as far as it will shoot without a mortor sight. Sorry...got distracted.

    BarSto barrel probably supports more than the stock Glock barrel but I have never had any problems with the G20 before with the same load...maybe 800 rounds or so over the last few years.

    I still have no idea what caused it except maybe weak brass...those things do happen....still a first for me after 50 years of reloading.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by hunt_ak View Post
    I'm pretty sure its impossible for such a thing to happen. You press the muzzle against something soft to push the slide back ever so slightly and....no dice....
    Aren't you talkin about a 1911 here?

    I'm pretty sure it CAN happen, (With a Glock). At least, that was my understanding, when I attended a Hangun Course, at MVS.

    I wish I could remember the exact verbiage, to be certain. Something about the 1911s couldn't, but the
    Glocks could. (Fire from a locked breech????)

    I'm sorry, I don't understand the Lingo. (I call magazines, "Clips" sometimes.)

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    Smitty, I guess we're a couple of non-experts trying to figure this thing out. I'm pretty sure this would be the case with most semi-autos. Once the slide moves rearward, the barrel drops and the gun comes out of battery. I guess there would be a fraction of an inch to where the gun would fire when not in 100% battery, but I'm assuming it would be a VERY VERY small distance (at least it is on my guns)...

    Murph (or anyone else for that matter), care to give us the technical side of this?

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    Well....It is not supposed to. There is a device, an internal part called a disconnector that either blocks or in some way disables and prevents the striker/firing pin from moving forward enough to fire the gun when it is unlocked. Different techniques are used in different types of guns but neither the Glock or the 1911, or any other modern semi-automatic pistol is supposed to fire out of battery or not fully locked. It is true that some guns can fire if the slide is slightly back and the barrel is slightly tilted. If the barrel is fully tilted down, the firing pin would most likely not align with the primer, further prohibiting firing. Now to trust any mechanical gizmo to protect your butt would not be wise. Mechanical safeties and disconnectors fail in many different designs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Except that the 10mm operates at a higher pressure that most automatics and most of the 10mms are Glocks.

    It is interesting that the .357 SIG operates at a higher pressure than the 10mm - approx. 40k compared to 30K psi - but they use a small pistol primer in that one - perhaps to give the SIG round a stronger case head?

    Perhaps the 10mm needs to go to a small pistol primer also. The .357 mag started out with a large primer and went to a small primer and it that cartridge has worked out well for many decades now. Some of the .45 ammo is also now being made with a small primer for a variety of reasons.
    SAAMI max average pressures.

    10 MM 37,500 psi

    40 S&W 35,000 psi

    357 SiG 40,000 psi

    9x19 35,000 psi

    44 Mag. 36,000 psi

    45 ACP 21,000 psi

    454 Casull 65,000 psi

    I do not think one chambering in the Glock pistol is any more prone to brass failure or case rupture than any other. I have routinely loaded 45 ACP to 35,000 psi in Glocks and other guns with no ill effect except for greater recoil. Generally a heavier spring is called for when using such loads. As you can see the Glock chamberings run at pressures from 35,000 to 40,000 psi. Not much difference
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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