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Thread: Another one down North of B'wood. Fire multiple deaths per radio..

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Default Another one down North of B'wood. Fire multiple deaths per radio..

    I hate that..

    RR

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    Member AlaskaHippie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RocketRick View Post
    I hate that..

    RR
    With 5 aboard, 3 of them young Children.

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    No words for the horror of that reality....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

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    Member Toddler's Avatar
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    Godspeed ...
    Normal people believe that if something ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.

    Scott Adams

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Posted at another site per the crash;

    From a reliable source, on another forum, who actually witnessed the crash. The pilot "seat slid back or broke on take-off". The plane pitched up immediately, wallowed, rolled left, went in.

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    The pilot "seat slid back or broke on take-off"
    Or at least it sure could have. Luckily the witness was not actually in the plane. A passenger who grabs the yoke when their seat heads backward can make the same thing happen. As can a couple other mechanical problems.
    While most likely, we probably should not be hanging our hats on it, just yet.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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    I was flying around Big Lake headed for Birchwood when it happened. Makes my heart hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RocketRick View Post
    Posted at another site per the crash;

    From a reliable source, on another forum, who actually witnessed the crash. The pilot "seat slid back or broke on take-off". The plane pitched up immediately, wallowed, rolled left, went in.
    I have had that happen with a PA-18 and it took all the guts I had to release the stick, grab the "V" brace and crawl forward. The double bugger is you have one hand on the throttle, and inadvertently pull it full back.

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Yeah it is scary to even contemplate.

    An old Eng I used to work for did the exact same maneuver when his seat flew on 9.22.07 at Shrode Lake in PWS? He was flying a flot equipped 180. Plane nosed up, loss lift and rolled over crashing upside down into trees ending up on it's cabin. It killed him and very severely injured his wife. I've spent a week at that lake. Just room to take off on floats.

    Being the paranoid guy I am, I bhght that Safe-T-Stop and have it installed on the PIC seat. Once the lever is down you can't make it move back. Lift the lever and it goes back to allow access.

    Anybody concerned check it out.

    Also, as of last fall, Cessna was still paying for the mod to stop this..IE FREE! I may have that done also tho I heard it's a pain to operate.

    Rick

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    I had a C-150/150 that would really climb steep. It also had really long seat rails.

    One day a very short client who was doing a BFR went shooting past me as he headed towards the cargo bay. He knew enough to let go.
    He said "your plane" as he passed by.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    The Cessna kit is only hard to operate if it isn't rigged properly. I have one and don't even know its there.

    I also use safe t stops. Its possible to forget it though and the Cessna kit will always be there.

    Way too common of a problem not to have one or two backups.

    Lonn was a good friend. He will be missed dearly as will his children. The man really had a heart of gold.

    Alex is correct too. At this stage its only an educated guess on what happened but if it spurs talk like this maybe it will save a life by somebody installing secondaries of some kind........

    Dudes, fly safe and double check the double check.

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    I used a Saf-T-Stop for over 10 years until I switched to an Aerostop. The saf-t-stop uses a T screw to lock on the rail and the aerostop a lever. The aerostop is easier to set and release but you need to get the right one for Cessna or McFarlane rails. They're different. When Cessna first offered the inertia reel seat stop kit for free I ignored it and stayed wirh the aerostop. One morning I had an engine fire at start-up. That aerostop wasn't so easy to release in a real emergency and it delayed my getting out of the plane to extinguish the fire. Conservatively speaking the fire cost about a thousand dollars a second that it burned. The aerostop delay cost me three or four thousand dollars. After that brief experience with cockpit chaos in what was a mild emergency? I can't imagine how hard a manual seat stop would be to release in a real emergency or when upside down. I had Cessna install the inertia reel seat stops on both front seats. Like Ak-Hunt says, I can't even tell they're there.

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    Member ocnfish's Avatar
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    If it was a seat rail problem, how is that effected by take off proceedure. If you have a mile of runway in front of you, how about no flaps, nuteral trim and let the plane fly itself off the runway? I know when I set 20 degrees of flaps and trim for an 80 mph climb out my angle of attack is quite steep, initial climb of about 1500 fpm, no hope if the seat disengaged from the rail. I have a 56 c-180 with a 260 hp IO-0470.

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    Its unfortunate to say the least. The seat rails on Cessna Aircraft are fine, like anything else they were out over time, One of the things I learned early in my flying career, and I been flying since 1975, is to really look at the seat rails and fixtures that hold the seat in place. They need to be lubed from time to time, springs replaces from time to time along with the locking pin that holds the seat in place. I rock back and forth several times before I even start, you be surprised now many times the seat moved back. Its not like this is not a known thing, its been an issue for as long as I been flying, and when to consider the Age of the aircraft most of us fly, its a normal thing to expect. Pre Flight Inspection means just that, how many pilots just pay lip service to that or just to a route walk around?

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    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocnfish View Post
    If it was a seat rail problem, how is that effected by take off proceedure. If you have a mile of runway in front of you, how about no flaps, nuteral trim and let the plane fly itself off the runway? I know when I set 20 degrees of flaps and trim for an 80 mph climb out my angle of attack is quite steep, initial climb of about 1500 fpm, no hope if the seat disengaged from the rail. I have a 56 c-180 with a 260 hp IO-0470.
    You'll get differing opinions, but getting away from the ground on takeoff is my first priority. (you know all the jokes about crashes usually involving the ground...) Then when something happens one day you have options. altitude and airspeed = time

    Have an engine coughing on climbout through 200' and you'll be glad you have options. Logged that one. Also had catastrophic failure at 100' (at night). Both instances, it was nice to be able to think for a second.

    Talking about this kind of stuff; at least you've thought it out a bit and made a decision either way.

    Stewart has some great points about the Cessna kit in the pax seat too. I may be adding that myself.....

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Stu,

    Opps.....I have the Aerostop not the Safe-T-Stop. I really like it.

    OK then.... I'm gonna have them installed by Cessna if they are still doing it for free.

    How about some dry graphite for lubing the rails?

    Rick

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    I've heard that Cessna has extended the free installation of the passive seat stop on the pilot's seat. I think it's far better than the Aerostop or other aftermarket seat locks. It's definitely better if you need to get out of the plane in a hurry. In Anchorage you can call Aero Twin at Merrill or Seaplanes North at Hood. Both are Cessna Service Centers. Consider adding the stop to the co-pilot's side if your plane has dual controls.

    You shouldn't need to do anything to your seat rails other than have your mechanic inspect them in accordance with annual inspection and AD requirements. My most recent annual included new roller kits on my seats. They work better than ever but they worked pretty darn well before. If your seats aren't operating smoothly get your mechanic to fix them. They're important equipment.

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Thanks Stu I didn't know Aero Twin did that. I thght I'd have to fly over to Seaplanes North..whoppeeee...

    Just called to schedule it.

    Thanks for the info. Very helpful.

    Rick

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    Member ocnfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    You'll get differing opinions, but getting away from the ground on takeoff is my first priority. (you know all the jokes about crashes usually involving the ground...) Then when something happens one day you have options. altitude and airspeed = time

    Have an engine coughing on climbout through 200' and you'll be glad you have options. Logged that one. Also had catastrophic failure at 100' (at night). Both instances, it was nice to be able to think for a second.conditionsTalking about this kind of stuff; at least you've thought it out a bit and made a decision either way. Stewart has some great points about the Cessna kit in the pax seat too. I may be adding that myself.....





    Just say'in .... if you have a lot of runway and your bird is in good mechanical shape (like this one was), trading air speed for altitude is easy to do for an emergency engine out, leaving the ground at about 70 mph and when the wing kicks in, without flap drag, for the same amount of "time" you will gain more altitude ... go back to the basics remember what we learned in ground school ... look at true performance and the adjust your procedure depending on the runway that you take off from. Short field takeoffs at extreme angles of attack are good for less than 1000 ft of take off, in an old but good C-180, hang on to the V brace (if you have a float kit) when you lift off. otherwise on a long runway that angle of attack is just dangerous ego .... I'm out

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    How about some dry graphite for lubing the rails?
    I used to use an old hard wax candle. Just rub it all over the rail. It is clean and does not collect dirt and grit.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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