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Thread: Can I get a count on who thinks Hydrostatic shock death is a myth, and who doesn't?

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    Default Can I get a count on who thinks Hydrostatic shock death is a myth, and who doesn't?

    This came up on another thread- so I wanted to throw it out here for people to weigh in. I have had 2 animals go down at impact (both went "Hooves Up"), only to find that I had missed vital organs. On one (antelope) it's insides looked like jelly (shot it with my Husq using light magnum rounds topped with SSTs. Another I shot (Deer) with a 7mm mag. using PSPBs, and though the bullet lodged in the chest cavity, the vitals were untouched, but the top chamber of the heart was "blown out".

    I was always under the impression that hydrostatic shock was the cause (as the internal damage seemed to indicate), but in looking up the issue (after I was corrected on another thread- Thanks for straightening me out Tailwind) I find that Hydrostatic shock is assumed to be a Myth and unproven.

    I'm curious to see if anyone has a similar experience, and what the "ballisticians" have to say (yeah, I just made that word up.)
    Grits

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    I just had a long discussion with a guy about this same topic last week. Without getting too into specifics we were discussing both 5.56 mm and 7.62 projectiles and why lake city loads what they do.

    He was arguing that a more explosive bullet causes the recipient to actually stroke out due to overpressure of organs, he is very new to reloading and long range shooting and has never hunted......animals. I told him he was getting off in the weeds a bit. He was of the mind set that our 5.56 ammo should be loaded with a hp type projectile "like our 7.62 is". I was trying to get through to him that the sierra bullets used in our long range guns were not HP for a the reason of terminal ballistics, just that the very small hp of the match kings is a bi product of production with benefits in the external ballistics dept. We then got into match bullets vs game bullets vs varmint bullets... and round and round we went.

    His ideas were sort of on track, but he wants Vmax performance in his issue ammo....not going to happen and he really got wrapped around the axel on this one.

    I know hydrostatic shock kills, complete energy dump on target with no exit, so zero wasted energy is optimum. My best example is my fox gun. I use a 17 Mach IV, loaded with frangible 25g bullets @3200 fps. If I shoot an orange at 80 yds it will vaporize it, nothing to pick up, and mayby a 20yd circle of orange juice.
    When I shoot a fox at that range it is instant death, like a lightning strike, no movement whatsoever they tip over dead, and inside the body cavity is completely pulverized. When I skin them, the skin has a tiny entrance wound, no exit, and inside the chest cavity is mush, so all that energy is deposited and contained inside the chest cavity (slightly larger than the orange I mentioned). Instant death so this tells me the shock is what is lethal.
    I have also seen fox shot with larger .223 fmj bullets moving faster run a couple hundred yards with the same hit, much more energy in that round, but it is wasted as it zipps through and continues on its way.

    It is also very apparent with all the magnum, speed demon , ultra flat shooting big game calibers. WAY more blood shot meat. My 308 kills everything it has ever shot, and wastes less than a 7mm stw with the same front shoulder hit. Lots more hydrostatic shock with the 3K+fps rounds than my measly 2600 fps load, which is much slower at 200 yds when it connects.

    There are many opinions, theories, and definitions on this one, but this has been my experience in my 20 plus years of shooting live medium.

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    Well shock kills is fact, look at all the guys we have coming home from the Sandbox killed and injured with nothing but shock from an IED blast. Can a gun cause that kind of shock? I donít know but I donít think so. I have seen some odd stuff but nothing I couldnít explain in ways other than shock, though shock would fit some cases itís not the only thing that fit. My brain says that pushing a bullet hard enough to set up a shock wave in the critters tissue that would kill it would maen recoil would do me some real damage also, theory of relativity kind of thing. I have seen many videos of vested guys taking bullets (all nut jobs!) including one guy that stood on one foot as he was shot with a 300WM Yea he did a lot of cussing but didnít lose his balance let alone die from the shock and in slow motion the wave going through his body was plain as day. Itís too complex for me to be sure it couldnít happen but I have huge doubts a hunting rifle could make a shock wave of that amplitude. TNTs shock is something like 30,000fps and I just donít see how you get anything close to that from a rifle.

    You mention a blown out heart, here is a story for you from when I was a kid. My uncle shot at a mule deer, they said it went 7 feet up in the air then landed in his own tracks on his face dead. His son says the bullet splattered on the rimrock 3 feet high of the deer. Argument issues as they are going over to get it ďI hit him boy, he fell over dead didnít he!Ē Well there wasnít a mark on that deerís hide, it was ether a clean miss or a magic bullet. When we opened him up the aorta had ruptured and was about 80% detached from the heart, nobody had any idea what to make of it. Now that Iím older and have learned much I suspect that ole buck had a large aneurysm (weak spot) on its aorta that ruptured from the excursion of jumping in fright when shot at.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKmik View Post
    I just had a long discussion with a guy about this same topic last week. Without getting too into specifics we were discussing both 5.56 mm and 7.62 projectiles and why lake city loads what they do.

    He was arguing that a more explosive bullet causes the recipient to actually stroke out due to overpressure of organs, he is very new to reloading and long range shooting and has never hunted......animals. I told him he was getting off in the weeds a bit. He was of the mind set that our 5.56 ammo should be loaded with a hp type projectile "like our 7.62 is". I was trying to get through to him that the sierra bullets used in our long range guns were not HP for a the reason of terminal ballistics, just that the very small hp of the match kings is a bi product of production with benefits in the external ballistics dept. We then got into match bullets vs game bullets vs varmint bullets... and round and round we went.

    His ideas were sort of on track, but he wants Vmax performance in his issue ammo....not going to happen and he really got wrapped around the axel on this one.

    I know hydrostatic shock kills, complete energy dump on target with no exit, so zero wasted energy is optimum. My best example is my fox gun. I use a 17 Mach IV, loaded with frangible 25g bullets @3200 fps. If I shoot an orange at 80 yds it will vaporize it, nothing to pick up, and mayby a 20yd circle of orange juice.
    When I shoot a fox at that range it is instant death, like a lightning strike, no movement whatsoever they tip over dead, and inside the body cavity is completely pulverized. When I skin them, the skin has a tiny entrance wound, no exit, and inside the chest cavity is mush, so all that energy is deposited and contained inside the chest cavity (slightly larger than the orange I mentioned). Instant death so this tells me the shock is what is lethal.
    I have also seen fox shot with larger .223 fmj bullets moving faster run a couple hundred yards with the same hit, much more energy in that round, but it is wasted as it zipps through and continues on its way.

    It is also very apparent with all the magnum, speed demon , ultra flat shooting big game calibers. WAY more blood shot meat. My 308 kills everything it has ever shot, and wastes less than a 7mm stw with the same front shoulder hit. Lots more hydrostatic shock with the 3K+fps rounds than my measly 2600 fps load, which is much slower at 200 yds when it connects.

    There are many opinions, theories, and definitions on this one, but this has been my experience in my 20 plus years of shooting live medium.
    My experience on coyotes and fox over the last 35 years are much the same as yours. I've seen coyotes hit through the chest with a 308 147 grain hard nose run another hundred yards or more before they expire and I've seen them hit poorly with my 243 shooting any thin skinned bullet and they die instantly. I've shot coyotes running broadside and have it them in the hind quarters and they act like they were hit in the head with a hammer. Some of these "butt shot" coyotes are bleeding from the nose and mouth when recovered. They didn't receive facial injuries when they went down resulting in the blood but rather it's the pink foamy blood associated with lungs being filled with blood.

    It is hard for me to believe that the 243 bullets hitting those coyotes hind ends with such force that it causes enough hydraulic pressure in those critters blood pumping systems to force blood into their lungs. However some sort of trauma goes in those critters and it's always the same situation......always a little thin skinned bullet going way fast that causes nose bleeds when the bullet never touches the lungs.

    I hate to think how many beers have been consumed by our coyote hunting group while sitting around arguing this topic! Since I don't drink and I'm one of the old guys in the group I usually call it a night when they get going on this topic. I've actually heard a 12 pack of beer tell how he shot the tail off a big male coyote with his 257 Roy and it hit with so much force that it popped both eyeballs out of the critters head....hows that for hydrostatic shock!

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    I personally have not seen any mis hit critters drop from poor hits. In that respect I do not think hydrostatic shock is the magic lethal killer. I have only seen mis hit animals suffer from poor hits , no matter if they have been hit with magnum heavy calibers or frangible bullets at high speeds.

    I tried some 20g Vmax bullets in my 17 Ackley hornet early this season, loaded at 3500 fps. I shot a couple fox with them and had very poor results. The super frangible little bullets exploded on impact causing all their damage on contact with the skin, both broad side shoulder hits at about 100yds, both blew 3" holes in the hide and only penetrated maby 1/2" into the shoulder and both fox required a second shot. Very poor result, and neither was a clean kill so I say the energy was wasted even though it knocked both off their feet. If the shock is not contained it is not optimizing the energy.
    It would be like placing one of those little black cat fire crackers on the palm of your open hand and lighting it off, sure it will sting like hell and may even do some damage to your skin, but if that same little fire cracker went off inside your closed fist it would surely do much more extreme damage.
    I definitely do not believe that hydrostatic shock reliably kills poorly hit game, no matter how fast, how big, or how frangible the bullets are. Sure folks get lucky sometimes, I had a buddy shoot a caribou with his 300 mag. It was DRT, dropped like someone just unplugged the power. When we checked it out there was not a drop of blood anywhere, no holes nothing. While we went to work on it we found nothing...then when he was inspecting the rack we found where he had hit the main beam of the right antler about four inches from the skull, the magic bullet sure killed that one, but a one in a million shot, and still a terrible shot.

    A hole blown in some poor critters hind quarter is definitely a terrible shot no matter if it is a mangy coyote or the epic buck of a life time. Sorry, I am getting side tracked, soon I will be talking about shots on running game, and adequate range time before the season.

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    Hydrostatic pressure can kill but a lot of how well it works depends on several things. Speed is necessary. A bowling ball at 50 fps has a bunch of energy but almost no hydrolic effect. Bullet weight is needed to push the bullet deep enough that the effect gets to vital parts. Bullet shape is important at lower speeds so that the effect happens quickly rather than slipping through without disrupting a lot of tissue. Animal size, as an elephant shot with a 257 Wthby probably won't drop like a rock. So, if you can get the high speed frangible bullet deep enough to destroy vital organs the animal will drop very quickly. Dangerous game such as large bears, rhino, cape buffalo and such don't respond well to frontal shots with high speed light built bullets. You just can't get the effect into the boiler room from the front. Thus, at handgun velocities, people tend to use heavy solid bullets that will get through the frontal armor hopefully breaking bones or hitting the CNS. Even the African DGRs use heavy slow bullets to aid penatration and prevent bullet breakup. Hydrostatic effect works well on some game and poorly on others. Shoot a rhino in the butt with a 17 and see if his eyes pop out. Yours might when he stomps you. Shoot a chipmonk with a 17 and you will be lucky to find any pieces. So, my answer is sometimes.

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    I think it was 1971 and Roy Weatherby came to our gun club and gave a talk. He showed us some old film that was shot while he was working on a rifle and ammo for the government. They had a dog tied up close to a backer at 100 yards and fired a round. The dog died instantly with a two inch miss and more dogs did so with misses to different areas of the body. Roy called this shock. I don't remember the caliber but it was moveing more than 4,000fps,barrel life was the main problem. The flaw came when it was mentioned that the military was trained to hit the target and they never came up with a bullet that gave the same results with good hits. It was intresting to say the least and many went out and purchased a Weatherby when all was done,not me I'm a Taylor man
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    A hole blown in some poor critters hind quarter is definitely a terrible shot no matter if it is a mangy coyote or the epic buck of a life time. Sorry, I am getting side tracked, soon I will be talking about shots on running game, and adequate range time before the season.[/QUOTE]

    I'm sorry if my ethics offended you.. The truth is the coyote has all but wiped out our small game population. Farm cats have become a thing of the past. The coyote has gotten so brazen that they take up residency in peoples barns. I'm sorry if I show no sentiment for the *******s. If one of the boys in the group knocks one off his feet at 300 yards with a shot to his butt I do not consider it a terrible shot.

    In our part of the world a coyote is not considered a game animal or even a "poor critter", it is a menace that needs eliminated by any means.....sorta the same feeling you might have towards a rat in your garage or a mouse in your cheerios. Have you ever put out any mouse or rat poison? Ever watch a mouse or rat die after eating it? Our coyotes suffer way less!

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    Hehhaa,
    No offense taken at all, I was not trying to dig at you, or your experiences. I was only trying to make the point that on the crappy shots I have seen over the years the results were not instant death due to hydrostatic shock. They were more like holes blown in critters and the need for follow up shots. Definitely was not lecturing you man, I just tend to ramble off topic, that is what I meant by the running game, and practice.
    I am stationed with a bunch of boys that turn into instant hunters the second they get orders to AK, I have seen it all. I had a friend that went out for blacktails last year and was astounded that he missed a shot at a nice buck that was "pretty close, maby a couple hundred yards". The thing that was best of all when I asked him how much shooting he has done with his rifle, he assured me it was "bore sighted" when he bought it. I wish there was a hunters ed requirement with a proficiency test sometimes.

    I do know this much, I would love to do some coyote hunting somewhere where they are thick like that. I know what you mean about vermin, that does definitely take the game in a different direction. I have a good friend that lives on a farm and his outlook is the same as yours, the coyotes have snatched many of his young animals, and when he gets a glimpse of one there is lead flying no matter how far or how fast that thing is moving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKmik View Post
    Hehhaa,
    No offense taken at all, I was not trying to dig at you, or your experiences. I was only trying to make the point that on the crappy shots I have seen over the years the results were not instant death due to hydrostatic shock. They were more like holes blown in critters and the need for follow up shots. Definitely was not lecturing you man, I just tend to ramble off topic, that is what I meant by the running game, and practice.
    I am stationed with a bunch of boys that turn into instant hunters the second they get orders to AK, I have seen it all. I had a friend that went out for blacktails last year and was astounded that he missed a shot at a nice buck that was "pretty close, maby a couple hundred yards". The thing that was best of all when I asked him how much shooting he has done with his rifle, he assured me it was "bore sighted" when he bought it. I wish there was a hunters ed requirement with a proficiency test sometimes.

    I do know this much, I would love to do some coyote hunting somewhere where they are thick like that. I know what you mean about vermin, that does definitely take the game in a different direction. I have a good friend that lives on a farm and his outlook is the same as yours, the coyotes have snatched many of his young animals, and when he gets a glimpse of one there is lead flying no matter how far or how fast that thing is moving.
    Well if you'er ever in the midwest during the winter you have an open invite for a ride along!

    One thing that I will say that kinda goes with this topic is that body chemistry has something to do with how much shock a critter can take. We still have some feral cats in these parts and they take way more lead than a coyote before they pile up. Maybe it's just will to live......something!

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    I don't know about the hydrostatic shock thing... I've seen some pretty remarkable kills with zippy bullets that apparently didn't hit anything really important, but I've seen many more go down with proper lung shots.

    I think the hydrostatic effect is real but I think its pretty fickle to attempt to count on reliably.

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    I think there is often a lot of confusion between hydrostatic shock and pure energy transfer. Hydrostatic shock (my understanding) is an indirect failure of an organ; shot in the leg but the heart explodes. Whereas many hunters open up a carcass, see a load of jellied bits and immediately assume Hydrostatic shock, when actually all of that jelly can be traced back to bullet track and is just pure energy transfer and not remote failure. Also the 'dog dropped when shot in the leg' this could be pure injury shock and absolutely nothing to to with hydrostaic effects; dog goes '***' and the physiological shock gives him heart failure.

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    Somehow I am split from having taken game with both Bow and Gun. No Hydrostatic with a Broad head but yes with a bullet? Of course I understand the basics of " make a hole and let out lots of blood" The transfer of energy and disruption of vital organs/nervous system shuts the main component the body down then the subsequent loss of oxygen shuts the brain down. Does the Hydrostatic kill? In my mind nope, not at all. Does it disrupt the body and the brain shuts down later? yes.

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    I think hydrostatic shock can kill, but I don't think that is the actual cause of death in most cases. I believe the effect is limited to a short distance from the bullet path depending on the speed, of the bullet. As the bullet enters tissue it imparts a velocity to the water in the tissue as water doesn't compress. I would guess this velocity to be approximately the same as the bullet. The water blasts away from the bullet similar to an expolsion pushing more water out of its way. As the container ( the animal ) is very felxible the pressure of the water probably rises very high for a short distance but drops rapidly with distance. The speed of the water also would drop rapidly as the energy is absorbed in the surrounding tissue. This rapid rise in water speed and pressure does destroy tissue for a distance from the bullet. As I believe that distance to be short, say 3 to 4 inches more or less, I don't think the hydorstatic effect does the killing in most cases. Head shot yes or body shot on a small animals like squrill or rabbit. Blowing up the heart lungs doesn't kill immediatly. The blood loss to the brain doesn't take to long though.

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    Shock is exactly what it says it is. Shock is caused by the destruction on organs , tissue and loss of blood to organs. This can be amplified by hydraulic pressures caused by bullet expansion. Which can turn organs into jello and physically knock the air out of the lungs due to extreme pressures manipulating the diaphram, or damaging the vacume under which the chest cavity operates.

    However "Hydrostatic" shock doesn't exist; Hydro refers to the use of a hydraulic pressures, BUT, "STATIC" refers to the lack of movement; Thus hydrostatic shock would be a hydraulic energy without movement. Hydraulic shock as we know it moves the vital organs at high velocities causing tearing of veins , organs, and tissues.

    DOES hydraulic shock exist? IF you've ever shot a praire dog with a 220 swift at a hundred yards you'll no longer ask this question. When the dog splatters over a 3-5 square yard area, you'll know it does exist. CAUSE if it didn't the praire dog would just be laying there with a ragged hole in it. We've all seen it's effects on ballistic gelatin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    Shock is exactly what it says it is. Shock is caused by the destruction on organs , tissue and loss of blood to organs. This can be amplified by hydraulic pressures caused by bullet expansion. Which can turn organs into jello and physically knock the air out of the lungs due to extreme pressures manipulating the diaphram, or damaging the vacume under which the chest cavity operates.

    However "Hydrostatic" shock doesn't exist; Hydro refers to the use of a hydraulic pressures, BUT, "STATIC" refers to the lack of movement; Thus hydrostatic shock would be a hydraulic energy without movement. Hydraulic shock as we know it moves the vital organs at high velocities causing tearing of veins , organs, and tissues.

    DOES hydraulic shock exist? IF you've ever shot a praire dog with a 220 swift at a hundred yards you'll no longer ask this question. When the dog splatters over a 3-5 square yard area, you'll know it does exist. CAUSE if it didn't the praire dog would just be laying there with a ragged hole in it. We've all seen it's effects on ballistic gelatin.
    'HYDRO' has nothing to do with 'hydrualic'. It refers to water when combined with any other word 'Hydroelectric, Hydrogen, Hydrotherapy etc'. But the meaning that you have stated is generally in-line, hydrostatic meaning fluids that are not in motion. i.e. the bullet shock is transfered through the body fluids without moving them. Personally I don't think this is the case, just pure hydraulic pressure from the bullet path jellifying organs and/or directly pressurising arteries causing heart to fail/burst.

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    In the case of a bullet hitting a body we are discussing the hydraulic (fluid) pressures involved, not a hydroelectric dam, or the amount of hydrgen in the animals lungs. Take a pool of static water and throw in a brick the waters move, just as a block of ballictic gelatin deforms as a bullet passes through it, even though the block of gelatin will remain in the same place after the bullet has passed through it. The block remains in a static place but doesn't retain a static shape.
    These hydraulic pressures can damage/destroy vital organs even though the bullet comes no where close to that organ,as well as causing massive hemmorage and hypo-volemic shock due to the rapid blood loss into the body cavity or having it leak out of a hole through the skin.
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    Shoot a rhino in the butt with a 17 and see if his eyes pop out. Yours might when he stomps you.

    This is too funny, I can't get past it - sorry - I think everybody in the groups eyes would pop out if a hunter popped "old horny nose" in the rear with a 17 or any other round! Good one rbuck - thx for the tears!
    First thing that popped into my mind was the the old Griz hunter when he brought the bear back for Jeramiah Johnson and said : skin this one pilgrim whilst I fetch another!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nbh40 View Post
    . . . hydrostatic meaning fluids that are not in motion. i.e. the bullet shock is transfered through the body fluids without moving them. Personally I don't think this is the case, just pure hydraulic pressure from the bullet path jellifying organs and/or directly pressurising arteries causing heart to fail/burst.
    Yes Iíd agree with your disruption. Fluid does not need to move to transmit energy, the energy transmits through it. Ever walk up to a ball valve flowing water out and crank it shut fast then all the pipes go banging around . . . 1000 feet away this can pop open a week place in the pipe. That is water hammer or energy transmitted through a static fluid, the water does move a bit (tiny fractions of an inch) but the energy moved 1000 feet away through static fluid. To me this is what I think of when somebody says ďhydrostatic shockĒ or just shock in reference to fast death from gunshot wound. I donít see how a bullet can do that within a flexible bag of flesh . . . the flexibility wouldnít focus the energy like a pipe so any of this damage will be close by the bullet path.

    Shock in medicine refers to los of perfusion, blood isnít bringing oxygen to whatever vital organ (usually brain) for whatever reason = shock. This kind of shock is the normal standard way a boiler room shot kills, empty them of blood, shut off the pump, or collapse the lungs so they canít oxygenate the blood and you induce fatal ďshockĒ in the game animal. This kind of shock can cause victims to black out in just seconds or take quite a while.

    Shoot a yote in the hips and he goes down, I have always though this to be from all the nerve impulses flooding the brain all at once . . . the brain shuts down from excessive pain but before it reboots blood loss has induced shock then shock becomes fatal by the time I walk 100+ yards over there to pick him up. I have hit them in the CNS and they rag doll to a stop but the hind quarter shot tends to lock them up like a statue which I always thought was a seizure from being flooded with nerve impulses all at once.

    So do I believe in hydrostatic effect?
    Sure, that is what makes a wound channel larger than the bullet diameter.
    Do I believe in shock?
    You bet, it is deadly and sometimes very fast.
    Do I believe in hydrostatic shock?
    Yes, in so much as wound channel created by hydrostatic effect can induce shock from blood loss but I'd not join the two words.
    Donít think so as hit them in the butt and heart explodes form shock wave pulse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    First thing that popped into my mind was the the old Griz hunter when he brought the bear back for Jeramiah Johnson and said : skin this one pilgrim whilst I fetch another!
    That is my all time favorite movie seen, just the kind of thing my uncle was always doing to someone . . . me all too often! I always note the light in the ole manís eye when he asks ďSay . . . kin you skin grizĒ because that same light was in my uncles eye just before he would snooker me in.
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