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Thread: 30-06 COL question....

  1. #1

    Default 30-06 COL question....

    I'm loading 57.5 grs. IMR 4350 behind a 180 BTS Sierra with a col of 3.345...I didn't see any reloading material that suggested a load that long, but it shoots cloverleaf 3 shot groups in my rifle...I guess my question is as long as the bullet is off the rifling and fits in the mag. I should be good to go...right..?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneriver View Post
    I'm loading 57.5 grs. IMR 4350 behind a 180 BTS Sierra with a col of 3.345...I didn't see any reloading material that suggested a load that long, but it shoots cloverleaf 3 shot groups in my rifle...I guess my question is as long as the bullet is off the rifling and fits in the mag. I should be good to go...right..?
    Sounds like you've figured it out. OAL is limited by the individual throat of the rifle and the length of the magazine box; so long as your ammo fits both you are good for that rifle. A factor to keep in mind is that your ammo will not feed and function in all other 30/06 rifles. This is not a problem so long as you keep this ammo segregated for this particualr rifle.
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

  3. #3

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    Thnx..I never considered other rifles...I'll stick with this load then...I'm really happy with the way it shoots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneriver View Post
    ..I never considered other rifles...
    That's key if there are others in your household of if anyone else is likely to get hold of your loads. You've got the essentials down pat, but I'd go ahead and label your boxes with info about which rifle the loads are intended for so there will be no confusion 10 years down the road when you discover a leftover box on the dusty back of a shelf somewhere.

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    Default Resizing also

    Factors other than the overall length may keep the rounds from feeding in other rifles also. Unless you full length resize with small base dies rounds shot in a Winchester for example may not chamber in a Remington.

    Just something to consider if you have multiple rifles in the same caliber.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oneriver View Post
    Thnx..I never considered other rifles...I'll stick with this load then...I'm really happy with the way it shoots
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Just my $.02, but after thousands and thousands of reloads, I've never had an issue in a bolt action rifle with FL sized ammo. I've seen issues in lever actions and semi-auto rifles with FL sizing, but never in a bolt action (with the ammo used in the same gun or from rifle to rifle). I understand it can happen, but I certainly wouldn't recommend using a small base die just in case...
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  7. #7

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    I agree on trying before resorting to SB dies. But I HAVE had problems with over-long bullet seating.

    The most notable occurred long ago when a buddy and I were using our 06's and light hollowpoints to bust rockchucks and ground squirrels in a western state. Mine was outshooting his so far out that it was really frustrating for him. He asked to try some of my loads, and I didn't hesitate since they were nowhere near max.

    He dropped a round into the action and cycled it forward into the chamber, then decided he should go ahead and load the magazine, and ejected the shell to do that. Except when he pulled back on the bolt, all this powder came spilling out and an empty case dropped on our shooting mat. And he was left with a bullet lodged in the throat. It was a loooong walk back to the truck for a cleaning rod to remove it, and we both learned a little more about caution in the process. I'm not too worried that anything would have blown up due to the moderate load, but can't rule it out either. But in any case, bullet seating depth is variable from rifle to rifle, even when the cases chamber fine.

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    Default Resizing

    I've had issues with .30-06 FL sized cases in bolt rifles esp. the older Remington 700s which tended to have tighter chambers. However, I've reloaded with brass from both commerical and military surplus rifles including M-1s, '03s, M98s, FN1949s, Madsens, etc. which tend to have more generous tolerances than commerical rifles.

    Best solution is to try the rounds in the firearms ahead of time BUT if you want to make certain that the rounds will chamber in any '06 including semi-autos, pumps, and lever guns the best option is to go with the small base dies - then you know that they will chamber.

    I'm not certain that the small base dies really do any harm in a hunting rifle. If the headspace is fine the cases will fail at the neck eventually and I've never been able to tell any different in accuracy between a FL sized round and one from SB dies. Sizing in the SB dies do require a bit more work and attention to lubing the cases prior to sizing however. Generally I size range brass in the SB dies and then use FL afterwards unless I run into an issue or I'm loading for possible use in future unknown rifles.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    Just my $.02, but after thousands and thousands of reloads, I've never had an issue in a bolt action rifle with FL sized ammo. I've seen issues in lever actions and semi-auto rifles with FL sizing, but never in a bolt action (with the ammo used in the same gun or from rifle to rifle). I understand it can happen, but I certainly wouldn't recommend using a small base die just in case...
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    I've had issues with .30-06 FL sized cases in bolt rifles esp. the older Remington 700s which tended to have tighter chambers. However, I've reloaded with brass from both commerical and military surplus rifles including M-1s, '03s, M98s, FN1949s, Madsens, etc. which tend to have more generous tolerances than commerical rifles.

    Best solution is to try the rounds in the firearms ahead of time BUT if you want to make certain that the rounds will chamber in any '06 including semi-autos, pumps, and lever guns the best option is to go with the small base dies - then you know that they will chamber.

    I'm not certain that the small base dies really do any harm in a hunting rifle. If the headspace is fine the cases will fail at the neck eventually and I've never been able to tell any different in accuracy between a FL sized round and one from SB dies. Sizing in the SB dies do require a bit more work and attention to lubing the cases prior to sizing however. Generally I size range brass in the SB dies and then use FL afterwards unless I run into an issue or I'm loading for possible use in future unknown rifles.
    Do the SB dies size ONLY, the base, smaller than a regular FL sizing die, as the "Name" would indicate, or do they size smaller all the way around?

    Thanks

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    In my use of them over the years, my sense is that it's base only. Everything else is the same. It's only a few thou in that region just above the web, but it comes at a cost. I find that case life is reduced quite a bit, probably because the oversized chamber allows the case to swell a lot, then you're squeezing it back down further than "normal." That's complicated because this is all happening down close to the web where you really can't anneal, and therefore you get brass hardening, splits, and eventually even head seps if you're not alert. The need to use an SB die can be progressive. My current 250 only needs it on every 4th loading. My 25-35 needs it every second loading. Interesting enough neither my Savage or Winny 358's need it at all. Had a 99 in 308 that needed it every single time. And my 99 in 284 has never needed it.

    The only guns I've seen that really needed SB dies were Savage levers and Winny levers and semi's. For some reason (luck?) I've never owned a Remmy pump or semi that needed one. Never seen it in a bolt either. Only time I've had bolt "problems" was when neck sizing for one rifle and inadvertently moving the cases over to another rifle. FL sizing fixed that, following which I could go back to neck sizing for that particular rifle.

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    Default

    Best I can tell only the base is sized more - basically down to factory specs.

    I would only use them if needed or in the event the rounds need to postively work in some unknown gun.

    You can sometimes get rounds to chamber OK with standard dies if you adjust the die far enough down in the press so that you get hard interference with the shell holder at full stroke. RCBS recommends this in some instances if you have minimum headspace and/or a tight chamber.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Do the SB dies size ONLY, the base, smaller than a regular FL sizing die, as the "Name" would indicate, or do they size smaller all the way around?

    Thanks

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Best I can tell only the base is sized more - basically down to factory specs.
    A small base die sizes to minimum specs so as to chamber easily in any SAAMI chamber. Factory specs reside upon a spectrum allowing for variation in manufacturing tolerances. FL sizing dies resize within specs, but normally not minimum specs as that needlessly overworks the brass in most circumstances.
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    Hokay, Thanks.

    Smitty of the North
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    Default case life

    Except for case head seperations where headspace was an issue my cases - regardless of what die I use to size them - eventually fail due to split necks or loose primer pockets.

    What kind of premature case failures have you had from the use of small base dies?


    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    A small base die sizes to minimum specs so as to chamber easily in any SAAMI chamber. Factory specs reside upon a spectrum allowing for variation in manufacturing tolerances. FL sizing dies resize within specs, but normally not minimum specs as that needlessly overworks the brass in most circumstances.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    I'll let him speak for himself, but I expect case life to be cut in half or worse due to incipient head seps with SB dies, compared to standard dies or neck sizing. Just the way it works.

    Near as I can reconstruct I started reloading in 1958. Could have been 1959, but for sure it was before 1960. Lotta rifles, reloading dies and cases under the bridge since then. And they're all different.

    You experience doesn't make his wrong.

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    Default '06 case failures

    You got me beat by a few years but not too many. I started sometime in early 60s. LIke you many rifles, dies, cases etc. A lot of my initial experience was with the '06 as guns were cheap and cases were plentiful. I reloaded mainly to save money back then as I was a poor student and even military ball was expensive for me.

    If the headspace is correct i.e. not increased by the small base dies as opposed to the standard dies I don't see a problem with head seperation as the body should not be stretched. I do have to wonder if the SB dies may also size reduce the headspace - that is one aspect I haven't checked. It would make sense to size the headspace of the cartridges back to maximum also (minimum length) if the dies are also going to the small base dimensions.

    I'll size up some /06 cases with both dies and see what all I can find out. I believe I can use a depth gage and spare barrel to see if the headspace increase with use of the SB dies.


    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    I'll let him speak for himself, but I expect case life to be cut in half or worse due to incipient head seps with SB dies, compared to standard dies or neck sizing. Just the way it works.

    Near as I can reconstruct I started reloading in 1958. Could have been 1959, but for sure it was before 1960. Lotta rifles, reloading dies and cases under the bridge since then. And they're all different.

    You experience doesn't make his wrong.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneriver View Post
    I'm loading 57.5 grs. IMR 4350 behind a 180 BTS Sierra with a col of 3.345...
    One thing you might want to do is load up a dummy round to that length, label it real good, and file it. If you're going to be loading other bullets with those dies, or loading for more than one rifle, you'll find the dummy handy for future die adjustment. I just degrease the cases real good with alcohol, then write on them with a Sharpie.

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    Default No wrongs

    BB-

    After reloading for all these years I never say anyone is wrong unless they are obviously doing something terribly wrong or dangerous. I didn't mean to imply that he was wrong - just questioned what kind of failures that he was getting with the SB dies.

    The conversation did bring up the question as to SB dies also giving minimum shoulder to base length i.e. maximum headspace for guns with minimum chambers. That question will be worth answering.

    Sorry if I came across as a "know it all" - that was certainly not my intent.


    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    I'll let him speak for himself, but I expect case life to be cut in half or worse due to incipient head seps with SB dies, compared to standard dies or neck sizing. Just the way it works.

    Near as I can reconstruct I started reloading in 1958. Could have been 1959, but for sure it was before 1960. Lotta rifles, reloading dies and cases under the bridge since then. And they're all different.

    You experience doesn't make his wrong.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Not only would a SB die squeeze back to a smaller OD, but that squeezing is also going to encourage brass flow out to the neck. You'll have to trim more, and that brass migration starts from the intersection of the case head and body. SB dies do what normal FL dies do, but faster, and that is push brass from the case head toward the neck.

    Use standard FL dies, and size only enough that your resized case chambers with only a hint of resistance with the firing pin removed. As your brass works and hardens with firing, the die setting used to achieve this may change a bit.

    As far as OAL goes, if reloading, you are mainly limited by two things:
    1. bullet touching lands
    2. magazine length

    Start with bullets seated just off the lands or magazine length (whichever is shorter) and go from there.

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    Default Brass flow?

    I'm not certain "brass flow" from the base is really an issue in any bottleneck cartridge. I've certainly never had an issue in it with the subject '06. Case lengthening is an interesting subject - there are a lot of opinions out there as to the cause where it does occur.

    If one has a minimum chamber that requires sizing with a SB die everytime the case would probably not be overworked anymore than with a standard die and chamber. I personally only use the SB dies on range or unknown brass the first time I reload it or for hunting trips where I may need to fire it in an unknown rifle or under less than idea conditions in my rifle. I do agree that using a SB die everytime when it is not required may be detremental to case life and is unneccesary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vek View Post
    Not only would a SB die squeeze back to a smaller OD, but that squeezing is also going to encourage brass flow out to the neck. You'll have to trim more, and that brass migration starts from the intersection of the case head and body. SB dies do what normal FL dies do, but faster, and that is push brass from the case head toward the neck.

    Use standard FL dies, and size only enough that your resized case chambers with only a hint of resistance with the firing pin removed. As your brass works and hardens with firing, the die setting used to achieve this may change a bit.

    As far as OAL goes, if reloading, you are mainly limited by two things:
    1. bullet touching lands
    2. magazine length

    Start with bullets seated just off the lands or magazine length (whichever is shorter) and go from there.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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