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Thread: Debating between the 460 Rowland and the 10mm

  1. #1

    Default Debating between the 460 Rowland and the 10mm

    I have a stock Glock 20 I 10mm purchased for backpacking/hiking/playing in the woods and fishing in remote areas. This is NOT a hunting handgun, itís an ďoh crap, how do I get out of here unhurtĒ handgun. At present Iím stationed at Ft Campbell KY. I live and play in TN, and Iím working on getting up to AK for may last assignment before retirement. Anyway, Iím questioning if it is appropriate to move up to the 460 Rowland from the 10mm. Some of the questions I want to ask could be answered by it depends; I know that. I also am highly aware that shot placement along with the motivation level of the animal are two critical factors. Despite the undeniable value of a revolver, I do prefer autoloaders since I shoot them often and have done so for years.

    The ammo comparison numbers:
    10mm, 200 grain WFNGHC, Double Tap = 750 FPE at 1300 FPS.
    200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
    460 Rowland, 255 grain HC-FN, Buffalo Bore = 957 FPS at 1300 FPS.
    255 grain Hard Cast Flat Nose

    Background:
    I own both the standard Glock 20 10mm and the S&W M&P 45. The 10mm goes to the range and to the woods. The M&P 45 goes to the range and back to the bedside table. Iíve surfed and read every 460 Rowland thread on this forum and I have spent quite some looking it up online elsewhere. It looks good, but is it REALLY that much better than the 10mm?

    10mm questions:
    1: How deep in real animal tissue does the 200 gr 10mm penetrate into?
    2: Would it provide any realistic benefit to spend the $$ and move into a 6Ē Lone-Wolf long barrel/slide?
    3: Have you seen the 10mm used to repel anything in the woods, and if so, was it effective?

    460 Rowland questions:
    1: How deep in real animal tissue does the 255 gr HC-FN 460 Rowland penetrate into?
    2: If I get the kit for the S&W M&P 45, will the recoil damage my pistol? ($349 kit)
    3: Do I NEED to go out and purchase a new steel frame 1911 specifically for the 460, if I have enough compelling information that the 460 is the way to go? (+$295 kit)
    4: Have you used or seen used the 460 used for hunting or as a defense firearm for anything in the woods?

    The reality is that I have no first-hand experience with the 460 Rowland and my experience with the 10mm has been on paper only, but my Glock has been accurate and uber-reliable. The other reality is that I plan to avoid encounters with large toothed animals, or any animal that may want to stomp, bite, or otherwise harm me while only armed with any handgun. So, do you have any input that I may want to know?

    The 460 reads really well, but is it significantly better than the 10mm?

    MyTime

  2. #2
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    The extra bullet weight is significant but bullet placement will probably make more difference when comparing these two rounds.

  3. #3

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    I have had a 1911 with the Rowland kit and did not like it because of the long comp on the front so I would not go that way. I would lean toward the S&W M&P personally. I would like to run a test on penetration of the 10mm and the 460 Rowland just to see what really would happen. Similar to the "Box-o-Truth" tests.
    There was a bear shot with a 10mm by a member here but don't offhand remember the details now. I do remember they weren't eaten though : )
    Last edited by akraven; 04-25-2011 at 11:01. Reason: added info

  4. #4
    Member Toddler's Avatar
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    I use a S&W 1006 (10mm) as my side arm of choice. I also have several 44's but I (like you) have lots of experience with autos. I have never had to use the weapon on an angry bear. I have had it out of the holster while my inside voice was going Crap, oh crap, oh crap-crap, oh crap-crap-crap! I personally would use the money you save to buy ammo and get more range time.

    Just my nickel
    Drew
    Normal people believe that if something ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.

    Scott Adams

  5. #5

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    Hey guys, thanks for the responses.

    rbuck351: We agree that shot placement is essential.

    akraven: I was wondering if the comp would get annoying. Iíd like to run a test between the 10mm and the 460 but I donít have access to the 460. Good to know that the guy that used a 10mm on a bear was not diner or harmed, yep, very good to know.

    Toddler (Drew): Your thoughts on buying more 10mm ammo and shooting more often has crossed my mind. The range is 10 easy miles from my house and I go there to shoot nearly every other weekend on both days (50 rounds or so). It used to be every weekend until recently, the work schedule changed. I do like that G20 10mm.

    Anyone else out there that has any info about the 460?

    MyTime -aka- AJ

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    I would go with what you know and what you have more practice with. If God-forbid the moment comes when you have to draw your weapon and defend yourself with it, the extra rounds sent downrange in practice will be worth their weight in gold. Chances are your reaction to a charging ball of fur and teeth or hooves will be strictly muscle memory. I would go with your trusty 10mm if I were you.

  7. #7

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    Not very difficault to set up a 1911 to shoot 45 Super and ACP. A 255 grain hard cast at 960 FPS for the ACP and the same bullet at 1090 FPS for the Super is a significant load IMHO.

    I prefer the 45 but with a proper bullet the 10mm should work.

  8. #8

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    jwp500,

    I currently do not own a 1911 in 45 acp.

    I just noticed my type-o in the original post. The Buffalo Bore 460 stats should read "460 Rowland, 255 grain HC-FN, Buffalo Bore = 957 FPE at 1300 FPS" Woops!!!

  9. #9

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    On paper the .460 has a big edge, but boy I would not feel one bit worried about carrying 10 rounds of 10mm and an extra mag anywhere.



    "When the time comes for a man to look his Maker in the eye, where better could the meeting be held than in the wilderness?"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyTime View Post
    jwp500,
    I currently do not own a 1911 in 45 acp.
    Do you own or have access to a M&P or XD?

  11. #11

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    One important issue folks seem to always forget to include in these threads is the ability to see what the heck is making those grrr grrrr grrrr noises and snap snap snapppin teeth sounds in the bushes. Those are the trail sounds, coupled with a lack of moonbeams that make grown men wet their naughty spot and get all jiggly in the knees. For me, the need is absolute to have the capability of a "strong hand" squeeze switch that lights up a powerful light securely attached to my handgun. I gotta be able to see what my threat is. A powerful light in an attacker's eyes, (two legged or four legged) is also a deterrent weapon in itself. Might not be a game changer in itself but every little bit helps. Humans, (at least this human) need to see stuff, we don't sniff so good, we don't hear so good, as compared to other critters. Whatever weapons system you choose to launch that 65 caliper Whopper Magnumasaurus ya gotta have a light attached to the danged thing that operates one handed only with a minimum amount of manipulation. Where I go sometimes it gets dark and I'm ascareed of the dark places.....

    I'd say make sure your gun has a rail system below the barrel and hang a Surefire weapons light with the brand/model dedicated pressure switch under the frame. Then get you a proper holster to secure both devices....the rest is in God's hands.
    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for the shadow is mine and so is the valley. Thy Glock and thy M14 comfort me in days of civil unrest and terror

  12. #12

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    Reconsider getting a revolver. A firearm is a tool and certain tools work better for certain jobs than others. Would you say "...I prefer wrenches" when the job calls for a hammer? Big bear calls for the most powerful round you can shoot accurately in my thinking.

    I'm more familiar with automatics myself, but I'm very pleased with my 460V S&W and I have a lot more confidence in it's ability to dispatch a bear than I would be with either a 10mm or a 460 Roland.

    I had to decide between the 460V S&W and a XD conversion to 460 Roland. I was leaning toward the XD because I am more used to it and because of the high capacity magazine, even though I knew the foot pounds of energy it produces are still significantly lower than 44 magnums. Then my Dad asked me what good all that magazine capacity was when bears don't often travel in herds. He went on to remind me that if you are being charged by a bear you will be **** lucky to get off 2 shots.

    I still want a 460 Rowland, and a 10mm, just not for bear protection!

  13. #13
    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    You said that you read the .460 Rowland threads on this site, there was a longish thread on converting XDs and I think M&Ps to .460 R.
    You might give Ken at WWG a call, e-mail or PM. I'm sure he can answer most, if not all your questions.

    If you asked me which .44 load was better, a 200 grain bullet at 1300fps or a 255 grain bullet at 1300fps in a "oh, CRAP!" moment, I'd want the heavy hitter. But that's just me.
    I may be slow, but I get where I'm going!

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    I also think a good flashlight is a good idea but I don't like them hooked to the gun. Thats ok for out in the woods but if you are defending against 2 legged varmits that may be shooting at the only thing they can see (your light) I don't want to be standing directly behind that target. I also prefer large cal revolvers but if I had to shoot an auto, the 10mm would be the minimum I would consider and only with the heaviest bullet available. I would consider the 460Rowland a better choice but still on the light side. No one can say for sure what will work in any given situation but the heavy cast (+ - 300gr) at 1000+ fps penatrate well where lighter bullets don't do as well. The good thing is most of us will never have to prove whether our ideas are right or not. We each have to decide for ourself but the 10mm just doesn't give me a warm fuzzy like something bigger. I just don't think quantity makes up for quality.

  15. #15
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    The 460 Rowland has a ballistic edge over the 10mm. On the other hand, the 10mm, subjectively to me, recoils less. You can get hi cap 10s (Glocks) and High Cap Rowlands (I think they are 12, nice, I dont even know the product )

    On the 1911 platform you need either an extended barrel or long slide to take advantage of thee ballistics. Comps and ports help to.

    On the M&P 45, you can convert it merely by swapping barrels (and having your conversion correctly installed and tuned), same as the 1911. If you have an M&P, thats the way to go. Unless you are a glutton for pain, you will be shooting more .45acp than .460. We have yet to hear a report about frame damage in the plastic guns for the 460 Rowlnd.

    Now I know more than one dude whjo has popped a bear with a 10mm. I think, but I am not sure, that Jim West popped a bear with the 460. He carries one while guiding and hes been guiding for a long time.

    I think we did some penetration tests on wet phone books and the 460 Rowland won.

    Ammo: We exclusively reccommed CoR Bon in the 460 and tell that to the folks who get the kits. The guys at Corbon have 460s and like the concept and have worked with us on ammo. Their ammo is high quality and their customer service beyond repute. Remember, lots of these bear stopper cartridges are pushing the envelope so its nice to have someone ready to help in their customer service Department...

    I personally am a revolver guy.

    All depends on your needs I reckon. The conversions will give you more power than a 10mm, up to you whether you want to pay the money.

  16. #16

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    Has anyone done any penetration testing on the new Glock conversion, called a .50 GI? See it here: http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/sneakpreview.shtml

    I don't know much about this, in terms of penetration potential. I'd suspect that you'd need a long barrel to get full benefit of the boolit but it looks like pressure and recoil are not an issue. I'm not advocating, just wondering......

    Some info here on the cartridge: http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/...artridge.shtml
    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for the shadow is mine and so is the valley. Thy Glock and thy M14 comfort me in days of civil unrest and terror

  17. #17

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    300gr .50 GI JFP---700 fps

    I believe the low speed and the increased frontal area of the bullet would give you a low sectional density and poor penetration.
    "When the time comes for a man to look his Maker in the eye, where better could the meeting be held than in the wilderness?"

  18. #18

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    Sorry about the delay in my response folks. Storms hit and the power has been out for nearly 20 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by akraven View Post
    Do you own or have access to a M&P or XD?
    Actually I do have an M&P 45. One of my concerns in the original post is that I didn't want anything to harm the M&P. If swapping the barrel and the spring out are the only needs then I'm good to go but if there are frame or slide modifications, I'd rather get another M&P or an XD or an 1911 and make it into a "460 Rowland only" handgun.

    My crystal ball is getting clearer but there's sill a fuzzy haze on it.

    MyTime

  19. #19

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    Glad to hear you are doing ok with the storms down there. Sounds like it has been pretty bad all across the south.

  20. #20
    Member akrstabout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyTime View Post
    I have a stock Glock 20 I 10mm purchased for backpacking/hiking/playing in the woods and fishing in remote areas. This is NOT a hunting handgun, itís an ďoh crap, how do I get out of here unhurtĒ handgun. At present Iím stationed at Ft Campbell KY. I live and play in TN, and Iím working on getting up to AK for may last assignment before retirement. Anyway, Iím questioning if it is appropriate to move up to the 460 Rowland from the 10mm. Some of the questions I want to ask could be answered by it depends; I know that. I also am highly aware that shot placement along with the motivation level of the animal are two critical factors. Despite the undeniable value of a revolver, I do prefer autoloaders since I shoot them often and have done so for years.

    The ammo comparison numbers:
    10mm, 200 grain WFNGHC, Double Tap = 750 FPE at 1300 FPS.
    200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
    460 Rowland, 255 grain HC-FN, Buffalo Bore = 957 FPS at 1300 FPS.
    255 grain Hard Cast Flat Nose

    Background:
    I own both the standard Glock 20 10mm and the S&W M&P 45. The 10mm goes to the range and to the woods. The M&P 45 goes to the range and back to the bedside table. Iíve surfed and read every 460 Rowland thread on this forum and I have spent quite some looking it up online elsewhere. It looks good, but is it REALLY that much better than the 10mm?

    10mm questions:
    1: How deep in real animal tissue does the 200 gr 10mm penetrate into?
    2: Would it provide any realistic benefit to spend the $$ and move into a 6Ē Lone-Wolf long barrel/slide?
    3: Have you seen the 10mm used to repel anything in the woods, and if so, was it effective?

    460 Rowland questions:
    1: How deep in real animal tissue does the 255 gr HC-FN 460 Rowland penetrate into?
    2: If I get the kit for the S&W M&P 45, will the recoil damage my pistol? ($349 kit)
    3: Do I NEED to go out and purchase a new steel frame 1911 specifically for the 460, if I have enough compelling information that the 460 is the way to go? (+$295 kit)
    4: Have you used or seen used the 460 used for hunting or as a defense firearm for anything in the woods?

    The reality is that I have no first-hand experience with the 460 Rowland and my experience with the 10mm has been on paper only, but my Glock has been accurate and uber-reliable. The other reality is that I plan to avoid encounters with large toothed animals, or any animal that may want to stomp, bite, or otherwise harm me while only armed with any handgun. So, do you have any input that I may want to know?

    The 460 reads really well, but is it significantly better than the 10mm?

    MyTime

    big bear 012.jpg Here is my 2010 spring black bear. 6'10" and was not fleshed and hind end frozen after chilling in freezer when butchering was done. Got some sleep then measured, long night and next day! Shot at 2am June 5th with one shot. Using Double Tap 230gr Hard Cast in my glock 20 long slide. More than pleased with penetration, complete pass through on a huge chested bear at a compound angle, from tree stand. Will see how this year goes!! My glock is always with me in the woods, sold my revolver.

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