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Thread: Kenai Area Fisherman Coalition proposals

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    Default Kenai Area Fisherman Coalition proposals

    Yukon asked what the KAFC did at the meeting on 28 Feb. In the spirit of a new idea in UCI KAFC is being totally transparent.

    So here are the proposals to the BOF that they plan to submit at this time. Some are still being discussed.

    1. A placeholder proposal on hydrocarbons in the Kenai River - some options include odd/even day split on 2 strokes in 2008 and 2009 with a total closure for fishing in 2010. Placeholder proposals are just to make sure the issue is public noticed so the Board can take action. Positions are not firm as new data and information will come in between the 10 April deadline and the actual BOF meeting.

    2. A placeholder on hydrocarbons for the PU fishery - this ranged from anchor fisheries for 2 stroke users to area limitations in the options.

    3. Extending the slot limit in the middle river until 31 July

    4. Keeping the closed waters around the tributaries closed until 31 July

    5. Adjusting the guide start hours - to 7am to 7pm instead of 6am to 6pm

    6. Limiting guides on Sundays to fishing with the second degree of kindered (like one can do in hunting bears with family members) to reduce the illegal guide activiy on Sundays and to reduce the guided catch which is allocated to non-guided anglers on Sunday.

    7 Increase the char limit on Cooper Lake to 5 from 2.

    Other proposals that are still being developed or discussed include (a) looking at the potential for additional harvest of jack chinook salmon; (b) looking at combining the management plans into one plan with clearly stated goals and objectives (c) trying to see if there is a real issue with guides taking up spots before legal guided fishing time (d) looking at the issue of the Kasilof Terminal commercial fishery and (e) looking at the emergency order limitations in the management plans relative to chinook salmon harvest.

    I am not sure how many of the a to e proposal will get written.

    Now a question for you Yukon - are you willing to share what the guide association is putting in right now or KRSFA if you know.

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    Thumbs up Joe Fisherman reveals all. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Now a question for you Yukon - are you willing to share what the guide association is putting in right now or KRSFA if you know.
    Same question from me, yukon. . . what've y'all got goin'?


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    Guys, I think you think I know more than I do. I am not a "player" in this whole thing. Too tell you the honest truth, I have no idea. Sorry, I am a "minnow".

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    Wink Age of Aquarius?

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Guys, I think you think I know more than I do. I am not a "player" in this whole thing. Too tell you the honest truth, I have no idea. Sorry, I am a "minnow".
    Well, you're too modest, yukon. Sorry to hear that, but do make some inquiries and let the forum know, please, what kind of proposals commercial interests will be presenting to BoF. Perhaps a phone call to KRPGA? Since the Joe Fisherman group (KAFC) has been so open, laying their positions before the forum for inspection, it would be nice if commercial interests (KRPGA, KRSA) would be as forthcoming. . . kind of an Age of Aquarius thing, a new beginning?

    You were pretty informed about the 50-horsepower proposal. . . maybe you could check with some of those folks?

    If the various proposals are made known—as with fNp's extended slot limit idea—it would give Alaskans who inhabit these forums a place to discuss the pros and cons of the issues.

    Thanks for your help. . .


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    Marcus,
    I am not in the leadership of any of those groups and do not make those decisions as to what to propose and to how to go about that. I am sure they are researching information and data to present proposals, as to what I know as much as you do.

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    Default 5.and 6.

    5. Adjusting the guide start hours - to 7am to 7pm instead of 6am to 6pm

    6. Limiting guides on Sundays to fishing with the second degree of kindered (like one can do in hunting bears with family members) to reduce the illegal guide activiy on Sundays and to reduce the guided catch which is allocated to non-guided anglers on Sunday.

    I seem to be slowing down here would you please explain why an hour difference, & the Sunday guide thing ? are you saying let the guide fish with his family out of a sticker boat … thanks

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    Default Fishhook answers

    The extra hour is so the unguided angler gets a little more time in the morning without the guide pressure. Guided anglers are now catching the bulk of the fish and conflict between guides and the public are increasing. So the idea was that an extra hour may allow the non-guided public more time to fish and then they may leave the river when the guides show up. Right now at 6 am they stay for that extra hour and conflict.

    The Sunday proposal is because a guide can fish on Sunday with a boatload of friends or clients that say they are friends. Protection knows this illegal activity is going on but it is very hard to enforce it. The illegal guides are telling the clients to say they are long time friends or they are not paying for the fishing trip. Some are charging more during the week and then on Sunday going out with the clients for no charge. Protection officers pointed this out to the KAFC at their meeting.

    So in order to allow guides to fish with their family but not clients or friends this proposal was submitted. It is easy to check to see if the people in the boat are related to the guide. A second reason was that when guides fish on Sunday the harvest goes into the non-guided catch statistics. This makes it look like the non-guided public is catching more fish when in fact the catch is better because of the guide activity on Sunday. So at this point rather than ban fishing from a guide boat on Sunday the KAFC struck a mid-point - they can fish with their family which includes grandchildren, parents and in-laws, brothers and sisters, grandparents -

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    Guides are currently not allowed to fish from thier guide boats on Sundays. They may fish from a boat that is not a guide boat, with family and friends. Nerka, thanks for singleing out guides on this one, when that illegal guide problem is far from a Sunday thing. WHy not address the high number of illegal guides on Tuesday to Saturday. Guides are the first one to call in illegal guides, they hate its as much as the next guy.

    So your proposal would allow guides to fish from a registered guide boat on Sundays with family, sounds good.

    Does it address guides fishing from a non-guide boat with friends and family?

    Or a guide fishing as a guest in another private boat?

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    Default Re: 5 & 6

    Thanks for clearing that up for me. So what happens when a guide gets caught fishing clients from his boat on a Sunday or what happens when a private boat owner illegally charges for their service and gets caught, do they share in the same punishment ? If I were to ask F&G or Park Service I would bet that the guides do most of the calling. Some of my friends get turned in very year & me to for what someone thinks is illegal guiding. Here’s what happens::: You are ask to reel up, Move the boat out of the hole to the bank,, Everyone produces a fishing license,,, Then you and your friends will get split up and they start pelting you with,,,, Who are you really,,,,, Were do you live,,,,,, How long have you known each other,,,,,,, Where do you work,,,,,,,, What’s your phone & address # How did you meat,,,,,,,, ECT ECT its usually all good till you see a boat hook-up with its rod bent over in the same spot you were fishing And all of this will take 30 minuets or more of your time. As for adjusting the guides start time how about 7:00 pm to 7:00 am.

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    Not sure if that Sunday guide restriction to fishing with "relatives only" is either do-able or fair. Seems it could still be tough to enforce... just as tough as the current reg.

    Also it wouldn't exactly be fair to guides who spend their entire summer fishing paying "strangers" and otherwise never getting to fish the Kenai with intimate friends. Some guides are single and have no wife, kids or in-laws. Should they be banned from recreationally fishing with friends if they have no readily available next of kin? What if four guides wanted to get together in one vessel for a morning of Sunday "fun-fishing" without clients? There is no provision for that in the second degree kin rule you are proposing. I have a guide friend or two... does that mean they could not jump in my private boat for some "fun-fishing" on their Sunday off?

    I understand your intent in curbing clearly illegal behavior (guiding on Sunday), but this rule creates different kinds of enforcement burdens as well as a few unintended consequences.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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    Fishing is supposed to be fun and all of the guides I know fish because it is fun and they can make a living at it.

    To place heavier restrictions on them and make it harder for them to go fishing for fun is not only unfair, but stupid, for lack of a better word.

    I think there are too many specialized interests in how the fisheries are managed. Too many kids with their hands in the cookie jar. Eventually, the whole thing is going to be ruined for everyone.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Question Special interest list. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Yooper916 View Post
    I think there are too many specialized interests in how the fisheries are managed. Too many kids with their hands in the cookie jar.
    Yooper, how do you define or categorize those various "specialized interests," the various "kids with their hands in the cookie jar"? How would you list them?

    Thanks. . .


    (If "Yooper" means Michigan's UP, I was a yooper once too. )


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    Marcus, every user and now it seems non-user is a special interest.

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    Thumbs up Good point. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Marcus, every user and now it seems non-user is a special interest.

    Good point, yukon, and you're right. There are many, many folks who don't "use" the river in the sense that guides, sport anglers, and rafters do but who are, nevertheless, intensely interested in and committed to the health of the Kenai River and its habitat.

    They too, as you correctly note, constitute a "special interest" in their own right.

    Thanks. . . well said. . .


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    I'm not even sure the wording I chose was correct. I just got the impression the last time I fished the Kenai, which was in August, that nobody trusts anyone up there with regards to how the river should be managed. Does that make sense?

    The commercial guys have their interest. The sportfishing guys have their interests. Fish and Game has their interest.

    Seems like this group proposes this, while the other group proposes that...

    My concern is that if the fishery gets regulated to death, that is what will happen. I have been fishing on the kenai since I was a kid. I would come and spend summers with my family there for the sole reason of fishing the kenai. It holds a lot of special memories for me that I'd like to share with my son, and I worry that the fun and adventure of fishing there will get regulated into non-existance.

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    Red face Proposals, proposals, proposals. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Yooper916 View Post
    I'm not even sure the wording I chose was correct. I just got the impression the last time I fished the Kenai, which was in August, that nobody trusts anyone up there with regards to how the river should be managed. Does that make sense?

    The commercial guys have their interest. The sportfishing guys have their interests. Fish and Game has their interest.

    Seems like this group proposes this, while the other group proposes that...

    My concern is that if the fishery gets regulated to death, that is what will happen. I have been fishing on the kenai since I was a kid. I would come and spend summers with my family there for the sole reason of fishing the kenai. It holds a lot of special memories for me that I'd like to share with my son, and I worry that the fun and adventure of fishing there will get regulated into non-existance.
    Well, you're certainly right to conclude there's a lot of distrust between some user groups. Proposals are made by the various special interests, which are then available for public perusal. However, there are rumors aplenty about shenanigans at BoF meetings, behind-closed-door deals, manipulation of the committee system, exclusion of local Advisory Committees and much, much more all of which serve to distort the process as it was intended to work for the good of all Alaskans. Who knows?

    At this point, it seems the recently formed Kenai Area Fisherman's Coalition, which is comprised largely of state and federal biologists, are trying to set a different tone by being open and forthcoming about their proposals and goals, even to the point of posting them on this forum. It can only be hoped other interests such as Kenai River Sportfishing Association, Kenai River Professional Guide Association, United Cook Inlet Drift Association, and the set-netters will follow suit.

    That said, I don't foresee fishing on the Kenai coming to a halt now or in the future though it's becoming increasingly apparent that the ecosystem and habitat are being stressed beyond their limits. Plainly, "opportunity" must be somehow reined in or reduced. Time will tell. . .


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    Default whoa Yukon

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Guides are currently not allowed to fish from thier guide boats on Sundays. They may fish from a boat that is not a guide boat, with family and friends. Nerka, thanks for singleing out guides on this one, when that illegal guide problem is far from a Sunday thing. WHy not address the high number of illegal guides on Tuesday to Saturday. Guides are the first one to call in illegal guides, they hate its as much as the next guy.

    So your proposal would allow guides to fish from a registered guide boat on Sundays with family, sounds good.

    Does it address guides fishing from a non-guide boat with friends and family?

    Or a guide fishing as a guest in another private boat?
    Yukon, just for the record this is the KFAC proposal, not mine. If it was mine I would put my name on it. Here is some of the discussion from the KFAC.

    Second, the reason guides are singled out is that the Sunday fishery was to allow the general public an opportunity to fish without guide or guided anglers on the river. When a guide fishes in a boat with friends or a group of guides they are using special skills and abilities that make them more successful than the average angler. They also take up space which continues the social conflict. People know the guides and when they see them on Sunday they react.

    The harvest on Sunday is allocated to non-guided anglers so when the Sunday harvest is skewed by guides fishing it looks like the non-guided public is catching more than they are.

    Protection indicated they know guides that are taking clients out on Sunday but cannot make a case since they say they are friends. How do you prove someone is not a friend? They cannot so the number of guides using the friend rationale is increasing and therefore it appeared to protection that illegal guiding on Sunday is increasing. They know the people but cannot make a case. However, with the second degree of kindedred they have something they can check - a marriage license, birth certificates, etc. They can do it post season so this does not require effort in-season. All they have to do it take down names and relatiionships.

    Guides can fish on other days when they have no clients. A number of guides do not make two trips a day and therefore there are other times during guided fishing hours that they can fish with friends. This proposal still allows family members but does away with the friends and other guides fishery on Sunday - it works reduce social conflict.

    In listening to the discussion from protection and those who fish on Sunday I would think the guide industry would be in favor of this one. It makes them look better to get behind something that reduces conflict rather than look like they want the whole river everyday. From my perspective this is a no brainer - give it to the public as a guide can still take his son or daughter fishing - he just cannot take those who pay Monday to Sunday and then on Sunday are life long buddies.

    Finally, if illegal guiding is going on the rest of the days the regulations on the books allow for cases to be made. I would assume guides do turn in non-permited guides - it is in their self interest to do so and the interest of the public to do so. That is a different issue. This issue deals with keeping an allocation system in place which is being abused by some guides. Not a good picture for the guide industry.

    Again, this is not my proposal. It is a social issue and as such the biologist on KAFC

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    Default did not finish

    I had a phone call and hit the submit button when I should not have.

    The final statement I was making that this is not a biological issue so the biologist on the KAFC treated it as a social issue.

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    Nerka, IMHO KAFC knows this will not sit well with the guides nor should it. The few times I am out there on a Sunday, maybe 2 per July, I see guides out there, the majority of the boats are full of guides and maybe a buddy or two. In my observations there is very little "guiding" going on, far less than during the week out of non-guide boats.
    I fully understand this is not your proposal and don't hold you responsible. But it is crazy that a guide can not go out with friends on a Sunday in a non-guide boat. Nor should that allocation be set as guide caught fish, because it is not a guided trip.
    So I guess KAFC is saying that I can not jump in the Doc's boat and go out fishing on Sunday afternoon, nor can I take a couple buddies down from Anchorage out fishing for fun on Sunday's.
    Do they really think the guides are going to support this? They can't be serious.

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    Dear KAFC,
    I see a few problems with said proposals.

    "When a guide fishes in a boat with friends or a group of guides they are using special skills and abilities that make them more successful than the average angler."
    Yes there is a "superman" out there on the water...but does he really have special skills...are these learned at some secret school that we are unaware of.
    Some people, guides or regular joes, strive to be better than a "C" avg in life. This in turn makes many people, better fisherpeople than others. I am sure that Doc could say he can fish with most guides and be as productive if not more...I am sure there are many on this board for that matter than can say the same as well. I know there are guides that don't hold a candle to some of the locals or private anglers. Are we going to say just becuase you decide to make a living at something you enjoy doing, that you no longer can go out and enjoy it yourself. Or should we say that if you are skilled enough to catch more than 3 fish a season you are far to fine of an angler and are no longer allowed to fish with the general public beacuse of your efficency. Please rethink that proposal

    "They also take up space which continues the social conflict."
    There are some seals that take up space down there and some seagulls. The statment that guides take up space makes just as much sense to me as mine. People are people we all take up space, who makes the rule that one is better than the other in this case....apperently KAFC believes that they are far supperior to other humans and in looking out for the best interest of all fisherpeople have decided that guides take up the most space.

    I do agree that if a "friend" has paid for the services of a guide during the week, they should not be allowed to fish as a friend with that guide on a Sunday or Monday. You can just as easily find that out by the log books, since guides are required to put license #'s in them, it will be just as easy to check that as the winter background check to see if you are really related or not. Better yet make the guides that are not well known wear a bullseye so that they can be picked out of a crowd, than require them to carry their log books, if the persons who are in their boat happen to be in the log book....BAM got yourself an illegal guide.
    Sounds like F&G does not have enough to do during the winter, let's give them something else to do that can take up time.

    7-7???? What is there some magical bite that occurs at 6 a.m. Could it just look that way from all the skilled guides and their superpowers making mystical things happen.
    personally I think 5-5 would be better, as more conflict would occur at the pillars at 6 p.m. with eveyone getting off work and trying to launch as guides are just trying to get off. If the public does not like to be putting in at the 6 p.m....wait till 7, have a burger and than go to the ramp when it is clear, why add to the congestion. From all that I have read it seems that a reocurring theme is that the guides that should make the sacrafice, well the general public should anty up and make some as well. What diffenernce does it make if it is 6,9, or any other hour??

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