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Thread: Custom 405 and Powder question`

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    Default Custom 405 and Powder question`

    I have a customized 405 winchester and Im looking for some advice on different powders to use when loading. The rifle takes a full 3 1/4" Brass and the only Known load I have is for 300gn Barnes X. Im using 74 to 76gns of AA 2520 and getting 2600+ FPS at max load.

    The question is. If I go to a bullet with more surface area like a 400gn X, what type of powder should I start with? 2520 is a medium burner and i am using Magnum LR primers. My current load of 76grns is producing nearly flat primers but im shooting out of a Ruger #1 so it will handle the pressure. I do not however want to over do it too much so with the ideas of using a barnes 400gn X bullet that has a longer length thus more friction would you go with a hotter powder with lower amount or a cooler powder and more amount?

    Im also concidering a Hawk 270gn in .411 and it would have less friction than the barnes 300 X so the same question applies.

    Anyone have advice here?

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    I don't load for it, but a bud with both a #1 and a Sharps in 405 is really sold on Varget. All second hand, but this guy is a shooter who really knows his stuff. Everything else he as recommended to me has come out gold. Check the manuals and see what they have to say, as a cross-check on my secondhand scoop.

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    Just to clear up somthing. There is no load data in any books because this is a new caliber. It is a 405 (.411) diameter but with a 3/4" longer brass. So Im trying to figure out the load data from scratch. Like I mentioned, I do have one type of powder for figured out for a 300gn bullet. Im needing to figure out info for heavier and lighter loads and dont know if I should go with faster burning powder or slower.

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    Default Try to find one of the old...

    Powley 'Computers'. The one I used with a couple of wildcats got me fairly close, though what I felt was a bit on the warm side, but still better'n a poke in the dark.
    They were a sort of slide rule affair that had you measure case volume, bore, etc, and came up with a start load. Been about 20 years since I've had my hands on one, and there's GOT to be a load program that'd do the same thing available, just don't know where to start.

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    TYBSP,

    If I understand your question here is a general answer.
    Compare this to the original 405 WCF, it is same bore size but greater capacity, so you would go to slower burning powder when using the same bullet weight (300 grain). Also when loading same bore size with heavier bullet you would go with slower powder. So in this case it would be slower and slower. I would say RL-15 would be the place to start since the original 405 responds well to RL-7 (just as an example). You could probably use a case full of H4350 with the 400 grain. I would stay away from the ball powders due to their non-linear pressure vs capacity envelope.

    Also you state; ....when going to a bullet such as a 400 grain with more (bearing) surface area...The bearing surface does add to the rate of confinement but not as much as the added 100 grains of weight. And as far as friction goes, the Barnes 300 has more friction than a 400 grain Woodleigh.

    You also use hotter and cooler to describe powder....don't do that. It is burning rate, faster and slower.

    As has been pointed out here the Powley computer will work if using the IMR powders also Load from a Disk will help out here. What is the capacity of the case? (Grains of water to the top) What are you using for brass?
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    You are understanding perfectly. And thanx for clearing up the faster/slower issue hehe, i knew what i wanted to ask just didnt know how.

    The 400gn bullet I was looking at is the Barnes X which is conciderably longer than the 300gn X bullet. So in this case I assumed that it would have more resistance in the barrel and cause the pressure to spike more rapidly. The 270gn bullet is a Hawk and with the soft jacketing it has I would assume conciderably less resistance. Excuse my terminology, again I know what Im asking just now how hehe. But you seem to understand so Ill keep going.

    The Brass is Bertram which is the only place Ive found that produces the longer 405 caliber brass.

    Capacity of the brass if I understand what your asking is 103.7gns of water.

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    The powley computer is actually very helpful. Any who want to check it out its here http://kwk.us/powley.html . Another useful tool is the balistic calculator here http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/ba...calculator.php .

    Powley suggests IMR 4320, 4895, 4064 when it calculates what I believe fairly safe loads. I was never a cylindrical powder lover till I bought a self feed scale but dont mind it now. Powder throw sucks with cylinder powder. Anyway any comments on those powders would be nice also.

    I like the sounds of RL-15 after doing some reading. Also Im concidering 4350. Any pros or cons between AA 4350 and IMR?

    As soon as the weather warms up so my chrony works I'll give my current loads a go. Ive only loaded 300gn barnes X and 300gn Hornady RN so far with 74, 75, and 76 gns of 2520. Ive got some 300gn Hawk Spire points and some 400gn Hawk RN's coming to play with next. Hawk also has some 235 and 270gn flat nose I may try later.

    Barnes tells me they may make a .411 in TSX in a year or two and offered to make some custom for me at the cost of 10,000.00 for tooling plus cost of bullets lmao. I guess Ill wait. One of the local gun shops has some older 400gn Barnes X that are no longer in production he will sell me for a reduced cost so that will probably be a test soon also. Well soon if the weather warms up.

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    TYBSP,
    You have a PM.

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    I'm interested in your project and your results. Have you chronographed any loads yet. I am wondering what you expect from a Barnes X bullet? This case with a 400 grain bullet in a strong rifle (Ruger #1) will only get to about 2100 fps, at that velocity will a Barnes X even expand?

    I have shot the 450/400 3" NE round quite a bit, of course it is a 40,000 psi round but it is a 2150 fps with the 400 grains and the Hawk or Woodleigh are great at this velocity. With your smaller case and higher pressure you might equal the old 450/400 NE balllistics.

    What are you using for a rifle for this one. I was wondering what your goal was for this 40 caliber. Is your brass just 405 basic uncut? I think RL-15 will likely be the best powder for the 400 grain bullets. Varget also but I have very little experience with that one, it is about the same burning rate as RL-15.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    will only get to about 2100 fps, at that velocity will a Barnes X even expand?

    Hey Murphy,
    During a cull we tried some (150 flat base TSX 30 caliber) loaded to about 1800 fps in a 308 win. With a 50 yard shot (1750 fps ????) at a bait they would expand reliably. They looked pretty similar to the ones recovered loaded to 2750. They would need a quartering shoot to stay in the deer.
    Last edited by BigHorn Hunter; 04-25-2007 at 17:41. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHorn Hunter View Post
    Hey Murphy,
    During a cull we tried some (150 flat base TSX 30 caliber) loaded to about 1800 fps in a 308 win. With a 50 yard shot (1750 fps ????) at a bait they would expand reliably. They looked pretty similar to the ones recovered loaded to 2750. They would need a quartering shoot to stay in the deer.
    Thanks, for straightening me out on this I really spoke out of speculation anyway, I have no experience with that bullet at that velocity. Is there a notable difference between the X and the TSX? Would you say the TSX is softer and responds over a broader range of velocities? My experience with several calibers with the X is that they work best when really cookin' out the barrel, I here good things about the TSX.
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    Well Ive done extensive loads now with this cartridge and developed most of them with the help of Quickload. Chronographed FPS for a 300gn Hornady Spitzer was 2801 averaged from 5 shots. This was an absolute maximum load as anything faster began to stick cases. 400gn Hawks are moving right at 2400 FPS and 300gn Barnes X at 2650 - 2700 FPS.

    Best powders so far for 300gn bullets has been Alliant 2520 and Hodgden BL-C2. For 400gn I've been using Hodgden 4350 with great results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TYBSP View Post
    Well Ive done extensive loads now with this cartridge and developed most of them with the help of Quickload. Chronographed FPS for a 300gn Hornady Spitzer was 2801 averaged from 5 shots. This was an absolute maximum load as anything faster began to stick cases. 400gn Hawks are moving right at 2400 FPS and 300gn Barnes X at 2650 - 2700 FPS.

    Best powders so far for 300gn bullets has been Alliant 2520 and Hodgden BL-C2. For 400gn I've been using Hodgden 4350 with great results.
    That's quite a load. 416 rigby ballistics from this 405 basic. What is this rifle? How does the brass hold up? 400 grains at 2400 fps (416 Rigby) and 300 grains at 2800 fps (378 Weatherby), these are chronographed not calculated?

    By the way Accurate markets 2520 powder.
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    Hehe, I have powder on the brain, sorry about the brand thing.

    The rifle is a Ruger #1 and the shots are Chronographed.

    As for the brass, its made by Bertram Brass in Austrailia and out of 100 cases, each loaded 2-3 times, Ive only had two failures. Both failures where due to imperfections in the bass and the failure happened in the resize die. I trim the cases after two firings. I dont see any reason at this point why I can't reload 5 maybe 6 times with these cases. I'm fairly impressed with the quality of the cases by how they have held up to some very powerful loads that produced flattened primers. Though I've backed off those loads, the current loads I'm using still tend to flatten primers some but the Ruger #1 is more than adequate to handle the load.

    The only problem I have with the 300gn hornady Spitzers is keeping the bullet together. Talking with Hornady, they said the bullet is designed for 2100 FPS in a normal 405 and chances are there could be a 40% loss in mass at muzzle velocity going into an animal. But IMO, it would still be ok for carabou or moose at 150+ yards. The 300gn Barnes X shouldnt have any problems but the balistics arent as good either, though still impressive.

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    WOW! That thing is a smoker. You're running it at the limit but if the brass is taking it your'e probably ok with it. I'd say you are overdriving the 300 grain Hornady, it's kinda thin skinned. I just sold my 405 WCF Ruger number one. I tossed around the idea of some kind of wildcat with it and I guess this one would have worked. My goal was for 450/400 ballistics from it and considered rechambering it to that old N.E. You've exceeded that with this 3 1/4". The 450/400 case is a case with some room to spare. It sends the 400 grains at 2150 at about 40,000psi or less, so it could be throttled up.

    How much 4350 does it take to get the 400 up to 2400 fps? At 3 1/4" what is the full case weight of water for that one? I hear that Ruger is coming out with a 450/400 3" N.E., I'll probably have to try that one.
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    Quicklaod estimates that I'm running around 55,000 psi on my max loads. I'm sure thats fairly close to actual. I've ran that up to around 58,000 but cases started sticking so I backed off.

    Its probably important to note that these pressures would not be a good idea on just any make and model 405. The Ruger #1 has one of the strongest actions on the market and is capable of handling higher pressures than most.

    Case capacity is 103.93gns. I'm loading the 400gn Hawk with 81gns of 4350 with actual Chrony reading 2385 averaged from 10 shots. Looking at my Data I also have pushed the Kodiak 300gn FN to 2777 but the BC isnt quite as good as the Spitzers. Hawk had two boxes of custom ordered 300gn spitzers that I bought and played with some and got chrony info at 2700+. They were thin skinned as well though I can have them make some with thicker jacketing if I really want to pay the money. (I dont right now)

    Its an enjoyable cartridge to shoot and recoil is seemingly less with the 1.5" Decelerator than my 45/70 is without any but pad.

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    I found some 400gn Barnes X that have been discontinued and have worked up loads that show little signs of overpressure at 2200 FPS. Slight flattening of primers but nothing else like stuck cases, hehe. I managed to get 5 boxes and I think these would be incredible for thick hide game. I plan to try one for moose this year and will keep putting in for Brown bear and Buffalo.

    FYI a local friend got a Brown Bear permit finally after 20 years of trying. Must be nice.

    Deer and Moose season is right around the corner. Just in time too cause Im absolutely SICK of Reds again. We smoked 47 of them this year. The whole town of Kenai smells like fish I think.

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