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Thread: Detached garage/shops

  1. #1
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Default Detached garage/shops

    I know, not strictly a cabin question but we're looking at a few properties that don't have garages, which has me thinking building a detached garage/shop might be the way to go if we can get the property for the right price.

    I'm curious what a ballpark price would be for a 30'X36' structure, either a 3 car garage w/ the back 12' as a shop, or 2 car 18'X36' garage w/ 12'X36' shop. I assume I'd run a seperate feed from the main breaker and have a sub panel in the shop, and I'm thinking just run a natural gas heater. It would be a slab foundation.

    I'm not paticular on construction, stud's and trusses or steel structure. I'd likely have the foundation done professionally, and put up the structure myself.

  2. #2

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    A couple of data points for you -

    We put in a 30' x 50' garage with a full bath, in-floor heating, 11' eves and several interior walls and doors for about $75/ sq ft. We run the boiler on propane and it is pricey to keep it at 45 degrees in the winter.

    Our neighbor put in what is about a 20' x 40' garage with 12' eves for $40 / sq ft. He has no plumbing and heats it with a Toyo.

    These are both framed on slabs.

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    I hope to someday build something similar and when I do will probably go with a system such as is sold by these folks:

    http://socketsys.com/

    With their system you can get a tall door for pulling in a boat or motor home without having a huge wasted volume up top as you do with traditional truss construction. Snow loading is not a problem, at least for the Kenai where I live.

    Dave

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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    There is now wasted volume with a truss. That space is ESSENTIAL for a proper cold roof on a structure. With the system you linked above you will have nothing but problems with ice on your eaves if you heat the shop.

    I don't see a problem doing a shop finished for $40 a square foot if you build your own. Mine will be closer to $30 a square foot with 16' tall walls but I happen to own the building supply store That's infloor tubing, boiler, big garage door, a couple windows, two man doors, and no bathroom.
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    Read the website closer. They are not "hot roof" structures. The is an air space under the entire roof to dissipate any heat that would try to build up and cause ice dams.

    Dave

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    I read the website pretty thoroughly. Unfortunately they didn't have very good drawings at this point because last night they were still re-doing their drawings. This morning the website is down. From what I saw, I saw a pole barn structure with metal connectors using 6x6's in a timber frame style at 5' on center to get a 60lb snowload. Since I couldn't get much data from the website I looked further and watched a video on YouTube. Connecting those "bents" (as they are called in the timber framing world" with 2x material on edge you could get a maximum of 12" of insulation if you used 2x12's with no airspace. You could use 10" thick R38 and get 2" of airspace. Unfortunately the direction of the purlins does not promote the natural process of convection to move the warm air excaping from the structure up and out of the top of the roof. Airspace doesn't really count if the air can't move up and out.

    In this day and age of increasing fuel costs, building a well insulated garage is as every bit important as building a well insulated house. Trusses provide a way to get maximum insulation in a structure and still maintain ventilation. They also provide a flat ceiling that is easy to vapor barrier and seal the seams. Also, frame construction provides the same benefits. With a pole barn type garage you may save money in the beginning, but it's going to cost you in the long run.

    These comments really only count if you plan on insulating and heating the thing year round. The socket system really looks cool if you are building a pole barn and don't plan on insulating it.

    Anyway, back to the original topic. Paul, if I get a moment tonight I will run the materials numbers for a garage like you propose at full retail so that everyone can see and compare materials cost for a structure like yours. Might be fun to see.
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    Member fullbush's Avatar
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    Paul my advice would be go bigger and taller so you can throw a 14' high garage door on it. You'll be glad you did.





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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I really appreciate everybodies feedback. At this point I just need a ballpark to factor in to figure if the property we are looking at is worth considering. I figure if we can get the property for X dollars and the garage will be say $50k, then it gives me a place to start from. Yeah, the ideal shop would probably be 36X40 with a large center rollup door. Course when I get pricing for that and it comes out closer to $100k, it'll be radically reduced. I figure the minimum will be a 24X36 structure, 24X24 for the garare, and 24X12 for the shop.

    At this point I'd be content getting a load of gravel, dropping two conexes, welding them together and cutting out the middle and calling it good. I know that wouldn't fly with my wife

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    Member dkwarthog's Avatar
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    Not that it matches with what you are planning, but for reference:

    I had a 30X40 pre-engineered metal shop with a 14' eave put up last summer.
    I have 4-5' of clay/loam over good gravel in my area. The dirt work to excavate and backfill/compact with good gravel was about 8,000.
    The thickened edge slab with #3 rebar on 12" centers and a sump was about 10,000.
    The building cost 22,500 erected.
    The two overhead doors (12x12 and 8x8) were about 3200.
    I had it spray foam insulated 4-5" walls and 6-8" in the roof cost a bit over 7000.

    I am building a 20x30 upstairs in it so the lumber for taht framing will somwhere around 1500.

    So the total ought to be in the range of 55-60K once I get it wired, lit, and a stove in it.

    good luck on yours if you build one..

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    That shop sounds like a dream come true!!! I can just picture all the cool stuff I could do with all that room! I am seeing an upstairs reloading room, a bar/lounge/sheep hunt exercise room (with a big screen tv for hunting DVD's), a place for the boat, room for the wheelers...... <wipes drool off chin>

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    Member dkwarthog's Avatar
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    Hey! Stay out of my Dreams!!!....weirdo...

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    O.K. here we go. You are going to need to figure the dirtwork and slab on your own. Wood and building materials only on this one. 36x40 wood framed shop with 16' walls so you can get a 14' door. Full retail pricing as of today.

    **disclaimer** This information is for educational purposes only. It should not be construed as a price quote nor as an advertisement for my business.

    152' treated 2x6 plate material $154
    304' 2x6 plate material $268
    152 2x6x16 for studs $2141
    152' 2x6 fire blocking $134
    5 1/8 x 12 x 16' glulam header $192
    2x12x8 man door header $13
    Garage door 12x14 $2000 (haven't priced one in a while, I get mine from Pioneer Door)
    man door $200
    wall sheathing, Fir T1-11 $3800
    corner trim, door trim 1x4 cedar $200
    belly band in 1x6 cedar $150
    misc. trim $200
    2x8's around big door $60
    Trusses, 5/12 pitch $4830 (good for Talkeetna snowload, I get mine from SBS in Big Lake, price is a couple months old)
    Gable end sheathing $382
    Gable end vents 4 ea $100
    2X8 fascia and barge rafters $215
    lookouts for barge rafters $132
    blocking for trusses $105
    soffit plywood $330
    soffit screen $17
    5/8 OSB roof sheathing $1250
    Ice and water shield for eaves $280
    Roof Felt $300
    35yr Arch. Shingles $1840
    D-flashing for around the edges $100
    exterior stain for ext finish $600

    Total... $19,993 for dried in framed.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    Member dkwarthog's Avatar
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    Thanks for doing that Doug. Really helpful....too late for me but great for anyone considering building...

  14. #14
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Now for a basic interior finish and insulation.

    R21 fiberglass for walls $1700
    R19 fiberglass for roof $800
    R30 fiberglass for roof $1258 (I prefer blow-in for roof insulation, but I don't sell it so I don't have a price)
    6mil visqueen vapor barrier $180
    Tape and Tremco to seal vapor barrier $100
    5/8 sheetrock for lid $630
    5/8 sheetrock for walls $1050 (worth the extra couple hundred bucks vs. 1/2" for a shop)
    Mud and tape $500
    paint $500

    Total...$6718

    Now tack on at least $1000 for fasteners and Simpson brackets needed. I have no clue on electrical, but I'd figure a couple thousand.

    That brings it right up to right near $30,000 if you provide ALL the labor. I'd figure $10,000 for concrete work and another $10,000 for dirt work. Also remember that if you get a lumber package quoted and you pay for it all at once you can save a couple thousand $$ in most cases.

    Looks like $50,000 is a good realistic number. You can save if you know people in the dirt work or concrete world or if you can do it yourself.

    This was a good exercise for me so that I have a good number per square foot for a basic box shop. Hope this helps Paul.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Doug,

    I really appreciate the effort you put into providing that information. I have a co-worker that is getting a backhoe, so if I put the labor into the dirtwork and building forms for the foundation I'm guessing I could save upwards of $10k. But I also want to figure on having enough funds to have the work done professionally should I find myself short on time.

    I'm thinking I'd divide the shop into a 24' wide bay, and a 12' wide bay, with a loft over the 12' wide bay.

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    Paul, it sounds like you are planning a partition between the garage and 12' wide shop? Assuming so, I think you might appreciate my emphasizing that a 12' nominal room is just a darn frustrating width, especially once it is compromised by the width of the walls. I would encourage you to go to at least 14', but really I'd recommend 16', or split it down the middle with 18' nominal on each side, and make the structure an even square, will make mental calculations very simple also.


    I'd much rather have an 18' x 28' workspace than a 12' x 36'. Speaking from experience here, 12' is just TOO NARROW! I m confronted by this all the time. It's a daily source of frustration.

    Not sure what your shop activities will be of course, but working on anything of size, you'll have minimal working room on the sides of it, especially once you find the majority of your wall space filled with shelving, cabinets, material storage, perhaps a small office or desk, and you'll quickly find yourself having to back objects out the door to turn them 180 degrees. This gets old before you've done it even once.

    Go wider than 12'.


    If you go with wood framing, my personal preference is to use r-19 in the walls, adding 6-mil poly on the inside and then 3/4" thick (or 2" +, i could explain how I do it) furring strips up the studs or horizontally is in some ways better, before hanging drywall. The added interior air space allows the r-19 to expand to its full width and thus near it's entire r-value, and it saves quite a bit of cost versus r-21, while providing comparable insulation, especially if you cut down on the thermal bridging with furring, the value of which is hard to overstate.

    If you go with several inches of furring, and a bit of interior foam insulation you now have a phenomenally warm structure, and you can run all of the wiring inside your vapor retarder, making for almost zero penetrations, an even greater benefit.


    If the cost of heating is something you would like to minimize, you should look into at least furring the ceiling, and having no penetrations there, if not furring all the walls as well.

    Of course, you could also go with 2x4 construction, and exterior foam insulation. Both are good options and far superior to basic frame construction.

  17. #17
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    You won't be able to do 2x4 construction with exterior foam insulation with a 36' freespan trusses. Even on 16" centers the loads exceed their capability. The maximum we have made it work is 32'. I have participated in supplying over 10 "outsulation" structures now and all have ended up with 2x6's on 24" centers on the truss supporting walls.

    I agree with the furring strip idea. I will most likely be using it on my shop as the "outsulation" may not be in my budget. We will see.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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