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Thread: Your guys thoughts

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    Default Your guys thoughts

    Okay the talk on what caliber is ideal for ie Brown bear and moose and whatever else. I was always told that it is the amount of energy the bullet is delivering at the time of impact. I know there are fellas shooting brown bears with whatever heck my good friend shot an 8 1/2 brown bear last year with a 300 win mag with a 168 Barnes TSX bullet. Anyhow the talk on the 308 everyone says shot placement but don't you all think the amount of energy that bullet is carrying has alot to do with it as well. Heck if you take that thought process on shot placement then I could use a 25-06 or whatever else with a 120gr nosler partition and call it good. But what is that bullet carrying for energy at 100yds?? Versus lets say a 250gr bullet out of 338 win mag or 358 norma mag. The norma mag is delivering over 4400 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. The 375 H&H is doing the same thing as well. On thin skinned animals like deer and caribou muzzle energy is important but is not a deal breaker. When you shoot a bear at 50 yds with a 338, 358 or 375 look at how much energy that bullet is putting into that animal. Me I can shoot the 338 and up pretty darn good so I will stick with those with a big well made bullet like the nosler partition and call it good. As far using a 308 you can keep it. I'm sure everyone is good shot but man all it takes is a bad shot and things can go wrong real quick versus a bad shot with a big boomer at least you will put the hurting on that animal and hopefully take the fight out of him. I have seriously thought about getting a 458 Lott for brown bear hunting I figure a 500gr slug at 50-100yds will ruin his day for sure. But who can handle the recoil? Off the bench you would probably use a lead sled and whatever else. In a hunting situation you will never feel the recoil becuase of the andrenalin (sp). Just my thoughts on the on this subject.

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    Member The Kid's Avatar
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    IMO energy is useless in the feild. The best example in favor of energy, or "shock" is a hot CF 22 on prairie dogs, it blows them apart. But for a larger game animal the caliber would have to be soo large and velocity so high it couldn't be carried or fired by normal humans. That's my theory anyway.

    Now that being said I have no problem with the notion of using plenty of gun. The most important thing, which lots of guys overlook, is to not overgun yourself to the point that you can't shoot it well enough to make a good shot. With the advances made in the bullet consruction field these past few years, big calibers with heavy for caliber bullets aren't AS important.

    I tend to err toward the side of too much gun more than not enough, but if I'm hunting caribou with my 30-06 and I spot a nice bear you can bet the 06 will already be stoked with a pretty stout bullet that will penetrate deep. Not my ideal Brown bear rifle but with a good bullet and a clear shot I'll not be passing up an opportunity because I don't have my big stopping rifle with me. I think there is also something to be said for using a rifle that is big enough for anything you may want to put a tag on while your out there, IE if you go caribou hunting and have no interest in shooting a grizzly if you happen to see one then sure take your 25-06. If you think you may want to tag a bear on your hunt as a bonus if you see one take a little more gun, but you don't have to hunt caribou with a 458Lott, unless you just want to.

    Anway I guess what I'm getting at is I think there is a definate minimum for any game, that's for FnG or the hunter to decide, but I'd rather follow up a bear with a 100gr TSX from a 25-06 through his lungs than one with a 300grainer from a 378Wby through his belly.

    Placement Placement Placement

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    Interesting......
    I've never put much thought into any more than putting the bullet where I want it....


    Then again, Im using highpowered rifles, so my main goal hasnt been putting "energy" into them, its putting holes through them...........and yes, that takes energy, but Ive only thought of accuracy, penatration and bleeding......though I'm more than sure that the energy is certainly there....

    Now ya gots me thinkin'

    Carry on, Id like to know more.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

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    Of course placement is the most important factor but a little more energy opens up more options on what is a acceptable shot. I have shot many moose and caribou broad side with a 180 Nosler at 2700 fps from a 30-06 and they drop for good almost immediately. But Never have I seen that load pass completely though the off hide and I have a good collection of Nosler bases to prove it. I would not take a quartering shot with that load where I have to penetrate guts to get to the vitals. With a .375 I would.

    As far as bear, again it depends on the circumstances. Any decent game bullet from a 6mm or bigger in the heart/lung area will kill a bear-in time. If you need to stop him NOW you want to break a shoulder and thats where energy comes to play. I don't want to be in a position of pulling off a spine shot on a charging bear-I want to break bone and I doubt I would notice the recoil of a .577 NE in those circumstances.

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    I'm thinking that energy is only useful in the sense you can apply to the animal in the form of tissue destruction. Looking at muzzle energy and thinking that it is completely applied to the animal is a really misleading notion. Modern bullets do a great job of converting that energy into deep/wide wound channels and nowadays we often are using cartridges deemed unacceptable not that long ago based on those wonderful bullets moving at high velocity...I've no doubt a 25-06 firing TSX or Partitons through the lungs will kill any brown bear on earth. A FMJ in the brain will work every time as well.

    That said, you are depending on a lot of things going right at one time- placement, velocity, range, target angle, bullet performance, etc. Take just any one of those things going slightly wrong and you've got a mess to clean up.

    Those bigger bullets just give more options for translating their greater energy into some type of fatal wound. Not saying you can be irresponsible with shot placement-gut shot is gut shot- but a .375 will be a lot more forgiving than a 25-06 if things are not exactly perfect.

    I can't say I'd choose to tackle a brownie with something marginal- despite the fact it "should work". I think when you're talking bullets, lead covers a lot of sins.

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    [QUOTE=323;912937] I have seriously thought about getting a 458 Lott for brown bear hunting I figure a 500gr slug at 50-100yds will ruin his day for sure. But who can handle the recoil? Off the bench you would probably use a lead sled and whatever else. QUOTE]

    I use a .458 Lott for Brownie hunting, and the setup only weighs around 8 lbs. I target off the bench without any recoil reducing devices and then move into field position shooting, it's not that bad or maybe it is and I just got used to it. Either way is it too much gun?? Hell I dont know but I shoot it well, its light and theres nothing like walking around the woods with a shoulder fired ICBM.. I'm going out to birshwood this weekend, gimme a hollar and you can give it a try...

    B&C 04
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    I always tell guys to shoot the biggest gun you are comfortable with for some it might be a 30-06 but others can handle the 458 but if you take your wife hunting for brownies she most likley will not be able to handle something like that. If you are shooting a smaller gun use good judgement to place shots and you will be fine. I would rather take a guy hunting using a 7mm but is acurate with it than the same guy using a 700 nitro mag but cant shoot it because its too much gun and is afraid of it and does not practice with it, sure its more than enough gun but IMO a bad shot is still a bad shot no matter what you use.

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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Energy is important in that enables an appropriately sized and constructed bullet to penetrate well enough to inflict an immediately (hopefully) mortal wound.

    A light bullet going really fast may have more kinetic energy but since that bullet probably lacks the mass to convert that energy into penetration while a heavier, slower bullet with its greater mass will (usually) convert more of it's kinetic energy into penetration.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

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    I was watching a show on the outdoor channel and they were hunting elephents and one charge ol boy had a double I think in a 577 and he touched that thing off and when he hit the Elephant it rocked that thing backwards and it turned its charge they found shot it a couple of more times. Would a good ol 30-06 do that don't get me wrong like the 06. I guess what I'm getting at stopping power on a bear hunt that goes wrong ie charging you. When guys post about a 308 I just wonder, when they can if they can afford to upgrade to a 358 winchester with 225 partitions that 358 is a mild recoiling gun. I think shooting a 225 is alot better than 180s if something goes wrong, even if nothing does go wrong. The 225 is leaving the 358 aroudn 2500 f.p.s while the 180 out of the 308 is doing what maybe 2400 f.p.s maybe a little better. Oh by the way the worse kicking rifle I ever shot was a 308 on one of the older mossbergs made in the 80's i guess with the clip that fell out after every other shot LOL. Man that thing was horrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 323 View Post
    But who can handle the recoil? Off the bench you would probably use a lead sled and whatever else. In a hunting situation you will never feel the recoil becuase of the andrenalin (sp). Just my thoughts on the on this subject.
    in my opinion, not many people handle a lott well...i like em and i'm thinking of building one...but i'm not sensitive to recoil, and shoot my 458 win for fun...but the lott is where i start having to pay attention to holding on to the gun. anybody can shoot a big bore, but they take a little time and dedication to shoot them well consistently, in my experience anyway. as far as bear guns, plenty of us have contributed our thoughts on this subject many times, so i wont add much...but one thing to think about when hard kicking guns are concerned: with bears theres almost always a follow up shot made by the shooter/hunter directly after the initial shot...as it should be. sure, you wont feel the gun on your shoulder during the actual shooting of an animal, (adrenaline and all that good stuff)...but...one thing to consider is: the recoil on really big bore rifles takes some holding on to to keep a good sight picture for any additional shots, also if you've scoped your big bore, it needs to have LOTS of eye relief to keep from getting "scoped"(if you get scoped by a lott, its gonna really really hurt)...also, if a sort of muzzle brake is applied remember that your left ear will be deafened if you have something for that sound to bounce off of laterally...ie: tundra mound while shooting prone, rock, pack, whatever...i'm speaking from experience...it's one of the reason i hate braked guns. any three of these circumstances can greatly effect the accuracy from your second shot to the last...just something to think about and to remember. i wouldnt reccomend a 458 lott to anyone who hasnt had previous experience with big bores, with the exception of a guide...and then you still dont see a whole lot of them. i know two guys offhand that use them...both moved to the lott after experienceing less than ideal situations with bears and smaller calibers...possibly more for peace of mind than anything else...funny how that goes. anyway, my main point is that there are alot of considerations when thinking of bumping up to a caliber like that, and in my opinion its a fairly hard gun to get competent with. just my opinion though.

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    Energy is important in that enables an appropriately sized and constructed bullet to penetrate well enough to inflict an immediately (hopefully) mortal wound.

    A light bullet going really fast may have more kinetic energy but since that bullet probably lacks the mass to convert that energy into penetration while a heavier, slower bullet with its greater mass will (usually) convert more of it's kinetic energy into penetration.





    That's what I've always tried to explain, but could never get it out so eloquently that it made sense. Thanks.

    Energy doesn't kill. Holes in vital organs do. Energy just goes along for the ride to make sure the holes get punched through.
    Now what ?

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    Came across something along these lines ( fp of energy ) when I was hunting for info about my question here http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...tion?highlight=

    Reading some of the heavy duty ammo manufacturers info about penetration turned up this opinion from Randy Garrett.

    http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

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    I, personally, think the "need a magnum" is bologny, if I was handed a 223, and told that that was the only gun I could use, I would have no hesatations shooting a moose or bear with it

    is I was given a 458, I would trade it for a 30-06 or a 300 Win mag or the likes, bacause I would rather have a gun I can shoot for fun, and hit stuff with, over a gun i am afraid to shoot


    now, if I were a guide, and I knew there was a very real chance of getting charged by a ticked off bear, I would take a 375

    alot of it is bullet construction. obvously you would hunt deer or black bears with a 223 with a bullet designed to explode on impact, you would get something that would hold togeher a little ways before expanding.

    energy has a little to do with it, but I think a 243 would bring down a moose with a good lung shot just as fast as a 300 WM, only because the bullets are designed to fragment and you would have a 100 little spikes going into it, however, if the only shot you had was a quartering towards, shoulder shot, a 243 wouldn't not break it down near as good as a 300 WM

    Right?

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FurFishGame View Post
    I, personally, think the "need a magnum" is bologny, if I was handed a 223, and told that that was the only gun I could use, I would have no hesatations shooting a moose or bear with it

    is I was given a 458, I would trade it for a 30-06 or a 300 Win mag or the likes, bacause I would rather have a gun I can shoot for fun, and hit stuff with, over a gun i am afraid to shoot


    now, if I were a guide, and I knew there was a very real chance of getting charged by a ticked off bear, I would take a 375

    alot of it is bullet construction. obvously you would hunt deer or black bears with a 223 with a bullet designed to explode on impact, you would get something that would hold togeher a little ways before expanding.

    energy has a little to do with it, but I think a 243 would bring down a moose with a good lung shot just as fast as a 300 WM, only because the bullets are designed to fragment and you would have a 100 little spikes going into it, however, if the only shot you had was a quartering towards, shoulder shot, a 243 wouldn't not break it down near as good as a 300 WM

    Right?
    I would never use a bullet designed to break up on game. Most bullet makers brag on their bullets retained weight after the hit. Some personal defence ammo is made to break up but I would not use it also.
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Steel cored FMJ's from Czeck land do a smash up job outta my Mosin, sometimes shedding their jackets after plowing bone,like in the picture, but the core always carry's on through, even after a few tumbles.
    Seems the "yaw" on the Czeck 149 grn.LPS starts at about 4 inches, as its quite a large wound from there on.


    Does the job, regardless, its the outcome I desire.

    I just look at 'em as hunting 'Solids"
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    Steel cored FMJ's from Czeck land do a smash up job outta my Mosin, sometimes shedding their jackets after plowing bone,like in the picture, but the core always carry's on through, even after a few tumbles.
    Seems the "yaw" on the Czeck 149 grn.LPS starts at about 4 inches, as its quite a large wound from there on.


    Does the job, regardless, its the outcome I desire.

    I just look at 'em as hunting 'Solids"
    Most military ball ammo is designed to tumble on impact can't use hollowpoints in war well heck just help the bullet to tumble nothing worse when a bullet starts to tumble inside a human tends to ruin ones day. When I was in the stan talking to a afghani ASG commander he showed me his ak and his 30rd mag full of those wicked looking russian ammo that tore people to shreds it was not your typical FMJ it looks like the core would seperate causing the bullet to tumble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FurFishGame View Post
    I, personally, think the "need a magnum" is bologny, if I was handed a 223, and told that that was the only gun I could use, I would have no hesatations shooting a moose or bear with it

    is I was given a 458, I would trade it for a 30-06 or a 300 Win mag or the likes, bacause I would rather have a gun I can shoot for fun, and hit stuff with, over a gun i am afraid to shoot


    now, if I were a guide, and I knew there was a very real chance of getting charged by a ticked off bear, I would take a 375

    alot of it is bullet construction. obvously you would hunt deer or black bears with a 223 with a bullet designed to explode on impact, you would get something that would hold togeher a little ways before expanding.

    energy has a little to do with it, but I think a 243 would bring down a moose with a good lung shot just as fast as a 300 WM, only because the bullets are designed to fragment and you would have a 100 little spikes going into it, however, if the only shot you had was a quartering towards, shoulder shot, a 243 wouldn't not break it down near as good as a 300 WM

    Right?

    Oh I'm sure you will kill whatever with a 223 happens all the time but hwo far will you have to track to find it? a 55,62gr pill versus a 180,225,250 300 is alot better than the smaller ones.

    Garret theory while good in wet paper test, what are the effects on live animals? One reason Lott went with ablown out 375 case to the 458 was becuase of his near death experience with a pissed of Elephent he shot in the head with a 458 win mag pushing a 500gr solid at around 1900 F.P.S once they finally killed the animal they found those big 500gr slugs failed to penetrate the skull. So he went lookign for somethign that would push that big bullet to at least 2400 f.p.s.

    What else I find amusing everyone talks how the 5.56/223 is inneffective as a military round but some folks would use that on a bear or moose? I have a 338 and would feel just fine using it on a bear as long as load 250's for it. I was moose hunting in unit 13 I ran a cross a fresh caribou kill i flipped my safety off my 338 but at that moment I felt a little undergunned with my choice of bullets 225gr hornadies... Did I feel I had a round that was capable of stopping a charging bear coming back to reclaim his dinner for that night heck NO. I want a round that will change the bears direction once it hits and delivers the energy to it. come on now over 3,000lbs of energy hitting and animal will surely change its mind and he will hopefully turn and go another direction. Would a 223,243, 270, 308 do that???

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    Turn a Bear with brute force??

    "12 Gauge 3" magnum slug", it the only thing I can say.......
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    I'll say this, I have been up close and personal with a few very large (9 to 10 ft) brownies and it will change your mind on what it might take to stop a brown that may be upset. If you have the drop on him is one thing, but if you don't make the first one count, you could find yourself in trouble real fast. The largest caliber you can comfortably shoot accurately is the norm for browns. A heavier rifle and nice recoil pad can make the difference in being able to handle a 375 or something like that. I use 340 wby mag. w/250 grn swift a frame. Shoots flat like 7mm and hits like a 375 and recoil is no problem. Great moose medicine too.

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    This topic is way over thunk I think. Do you really need to push the envelopes? We know a .223 can kill big animals but probably not the ideal choice. We know the .458 Lott can kill animals with authority but at a cost in flinching, ammo and not to mention the rifle itself. There is a myriad of choices in the center that will perform just right under most circumstances. For me that middle ground is the 300 win mag. I can handle the recoil, and so far it has worked great for deer, moose, sheep and bear. All using 150 grain loads. Same with a 7mm mag my dad uses. Heck I dont even think he knows what kind of ammo he uses. But everything he has shot in the last 40 years with that gun has died with one shot usually. The most I have seen him shoot an animal is 3 times. A big 72" bull.

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