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Thread: Native Land and tickets....?

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    Member J2theD's Avatar
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    Default Native Land and tickets....?

    While reading one of the Kodiak Grizzly threads on here it was mentioned that the fine was more than $1300 for tresspassing. I have also heard Ahtna will write you tickets if they catch you trespassing.

    So my question is...how can they write you a ticket and enforce it? I mean, do I HAVE to show my ID to some Ahtna guy, and can they MAKE me pay it? I know you can get prosecuted, but trespassing is only a misdemeanor, which to me, is well worth $1,300 +. Plus, they have to take you to court which seems like more of a hassle than they would want.

    I am not trying to instigate or have a negative attitude, I am just curious as to what the "rules and laws" are regarding a native corp. issuing you a ticket or fine.

    Comments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by J2theD View Post
    While reading one of the Kodiak Grizzly threads on here it was mentioned that the fine was more than $1300 for tresspassing. I have also heard Ahtna will write you tickets if they catch you trespassing.

    So my question is...how can they write you a ticket and enforce it? I mean, do I HAVE to show my ID to some Ahtna guy, and can they MAKE me pay it? I know you can get prosecuted, but trespassing is only a misdemeanor, which to me, is well worth $1,300 +. Plus, they have to take you to court which seems like more of a hassle than they would want.

    I am not trying to instigate or have a negative attitude, I am just curious as to what the "rules and laws" are regarding a native corp. issuing you a ticket or fine.

    Comments?
    I don't think it's a good idea to 'knowingly' trespass on somebody's land. If I had 'no trespassing' signs on my property and you 'knowingly' trespassed, I'd be pretty upset with you. I WOULD take you to court even if it costs me something. I would make an example out of the initial trespasser to disuade future trespassers.


    Trespassing doesn't change anything however. I wouldn't trespass if I was you. They have and will take you to court over it. They may even have the authority to arrest you. Besides, good ethical sportsmen don't trespass.

    Good hunting!
    Last edited by Brian M; 03-17-2011 at 13:20.

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    Member tlingitwarrior's Avatar
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    Everyone hear that? Sounded to me like a big can of worms opened up.

    One of the more entertaining aspects of this forum is the "ethics" debate. My ethics are better than yours, hunter "x" violated hunting ethics by doing "x".

    I submit that one of the most basic aspects about hunting should be respecting ones property rights. Agree with how they got the property or not, but respect the property owners rights. Got a problem with it, then put yourself in the shoes of the property owner...... as they say, walk a mile in my shoes. Still got a problem with it, then lets see how you feel if I camp in your back yard and shoot moose & squirrel.

    There seems to be no bigger point of contention in this state amongst hunters/outdoorsman than the issue of ANSCA corporations and their land. Throw in rural preference for subsistence and we've got issues to debate until the sun fails to rise in the east and set in the west. I couldn't care less if you agree with the passage of ANCSA in 1971 and the aboriginal land claims it sought to address, I do care that people honor the restrictions that rightful land owners put on THEIR property.

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    Private Property is Private Property no matter who owns it.

    Tresspassing is tresspassing , and prehaps the ticket reflects something we didnt hear about, 'cause fines and such usually do. Court costs might be a big part of it.

    Its private security companys, often Native corp owned , that patrol at the corp's cost.
    Percell Security patrols NANA lands around here, and usually give advice, warnings and sometimes, if the damage is significant or major laws broken, will arrest you as well.

    Just like a Mall cop maby, or any other private security, it costs $ to keep 'em working too.

    Its far better to contact the corperation, pay a land use fee if they have one and goforth without fear.

    Around here its a 15$ permit, and you give them a general idea of where your going,for their need to know, as well as so if you dont come back or whatever, they can look for ya.
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

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    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    Perhaps taking you to court seems (to you) like it would be a hassle, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that's exactly what would happen. They (the Native Corps.) take land ownership/trespassing very seriously...don't test them.

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    Member DoubleSHOVEL85's Avatar
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    Default Bend 'em, Don't break 'em!

    I usually don't chime in on these kinds of threads but...... As a resident of Kodiak I see a lot of this first hand.
    1.) I have yet in all my years of hunting, hiking, camping, fishing and any other outdoors activities on Kodiak to see someone patrolling checking for land use permits.
    2.) Even if there was somebody around patrolling, they cannot ticket, detain or arrest you. The power does not reside with the native corp here to take any form of law enforcement action. They can only wait you out, or take your license plate number and report it to the troopers. Which in any case they hardly ever follow through with it b/c most people that are on native land live here. But I will say this: Try NOT TO HUNT ON NATIVE LAND WITHOUT A PERMIT! You are just perpetuating the bullshnit if you do that.
    3.) Even if someone reported you for hiking or camping or fishing, etc on native land without a permit, 9 times out of 10 the troopers that respond are only gonna say to try not to do it again, if they even respond.

    SO to hopefully answer your question and recap. Yes you should buy a land use permit and if not you are running the risk of potentially having some jackass summons you to court for picking berries off the wrong bush or taking a hike/walk up the wrong trail.

    Now me personally, I'm the type of guy that finds loop holes and rides the border lines. Like the fact that Federal land surrounds/borders all of the native land and you can with the permission of the CG use that to get to public land that is in between or on the other side of native land. Also check the state website and look up all the roads/trails of Kodiak and i think you will be surprised to find some interesting facts about roads and trails that pass through or along native land. I'm not condoning trespassing and nor do i do it myself. I'm just saying that there are plenty of ways around the situations without the law or paying the $150. And if all else fails just do what everyone else does and fly out or take a boat to state land. The bottom line is to respect laws and decisions that were made long before you ever thought to come to a place like this. Kodiak is a small community and it only takes one goofball from out of town to come and stir the pot for all of us that live here year round. Anyways, if you need anymore info don't hesitate to PM me and i will point you in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    Around here its a 15$ permit,
    Heh, area I have a tag for it's almost $800.

    I do agree that private property is private property. It just made my eyes bug out when I saw the access fee!

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    i pay a wad of money to a native corp each year for permission to access their lands with my clients, into the thousands of dollars...however if a guide comes thru with clients and does not have a land use permit..the corp won't spend money to fine him, they write him a letter and ask him to get a permit. but they won't come out and bust anyone...why do i pay then?? good question...why does anyone pay? laws are only for people who follow them.

    then on kodiak aforgnak native corp actually checks their land and the people on it or near it...writes them up a ticket, fines them the price of the trespass permit if they don't have it and smiles...
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    Do some folks here have to be reminded that we are talking about people?
    The owners of these private lands pay taxes too....we are talking about American Citizens, and whats theirs is theirs.

    Is their grass greener?.

    If you lived in the lower 49, what would you say about paying a 'Hunting Lease" to hunt on private Property???? Thats quite the norm down yonder.....

    Dreamerofdreams, is that a Caribou/Moose tags you paid 800$ for or the land use permit? The Native corperations do not sell tags for hunting.

    When I go to Anchorage, I do not walk into people I dont know's yards, or houses uninvited, I dont hunt in the parks nor play in the feilds or sleep in unused cabins. .....

    BRNBEAR seems to know Humans quite well ~~LOL!!~~
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    Member J2theD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    i pay a wad of money to a native corp each year for permission to access their lands with my clients, into the thousands of dollars...however if a guide comes thru with clients and does not have a land use permit..the corp won't spend money to fine him, they write him a letter and ask him to get a permit. but they won't come out and bust anyone...why do i pay then?? good question...why does anyone pay? laws are only for people who follow them.

    then on kodiak aforgnak native corp actually checks their land and the people on it or near it...writes them up a ticket, fines them the price of the trespass permit if they don't have it and smiles...

    This was my main question. If they write you a ticket, is there anyway they can enforce that you pay it? I really don't think there is.

    My purpose for creating this was just curiosity. I am not implying that I plan on trespassing. Quite the opposite actually. On a recent hunt me and my partners walked WAY out of the way, through much tougher brush, just to avoid private property.

    To those saying "I dont come to Anchorage and walk through your yards!", I say "well if you did, I would not write you a ticket and expect you to pay."

    I did not mean to open up a can of worms about the big debate, my question was strictly about them writing you a ticket and legalities, etc.

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    Yes they can ticket you, ie, give you a notice/summons to a court appearance, to face the charges they are filing against you and giving you notice of in personal written form.
    You dont have to sighn, though...... most likely they will remain onsight till Troopers arrive, if its bad, if not they fly off.
    When the judge hears the case, it will go from there, and thats were the fine will come from, the judge, and is usually in the form of haveing to pay 'damages','Cost's" , ect.

    Usually, around here, a warning is given, suggesstions made and both partys part without dispute, because most tresappass is accidental, and most flyups are looking to do the right thing anyway.

    If its a felony or a violent crime has been committed, they (or you or I) will arrest the perp, then have a trooper convay them to a Judge to face charges filed by who ever is doing the arrest.

    Been there, done it. No cops 'round this village 'cept us U.S. Citizens keeping Evil at bay and Good Men DO something.
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    J2theD,
    If I drove my vehicle across your yard, camped out in your yard, Hunted in your yard, chopped down your trees for my campfire, and maby just slept on your couch when you wernt home, I think the 'Criminal Tresspassing " charge would be the least of my worrys..........might also depend on what Im doing or saying or how I'm holding the gun in my hands, while walking through your yard as well, but just the act of jumping your fence is something could get a fellow fined, even jailed.....depends on how far a guy wants to take it.........
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    Dreamerofdreams, is that a Caribou/Moose tags you paid 800$ for or the land use permit? The Native corperations do not sell tags for hunting.
    Land use. I was just comparing it to your $15 example.

    ETA: Whoops. Was signed in on the husband's name.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Try hunting in Texas where most all the land in private owed.Alaska is still about as good as it gets
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    some corps do charge different fees depending on which specie you are going to be hunting on their land...that one i have a problem with.
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    The US Forest Service charges us different fees for upland permits on what animal we are hunting or fishing for !!!!!

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    Member J2theD's Avatar
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    I would never hunt intentionally on private land, I can not stress this enough. I was just wondering what would happen if I accidentally was trespassing and was caught. Sounds like you would get a warning more or less. I realize actually hunting or committing a crime on their land would be a different ball game....

    Thanks for the input though

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    forest service bites too i guess! lol just never could figure out if the animals belong to the state how someone can legally charge you a different fee for access based soley on what tag you have...i guess its kinda landowner discrection...but it seems pretty lame.
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    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Um...the OP asked by what legal authority a private landowner can issue a fine. That was the question. He didn't ask "How do I get away with doing whatever the hell I want?"

    So, the question of how does a Native Corporation, as a private land owner levy a fine against a tresspasser? They can't. Oh, sure they can hire rent-a-cops and issue them official looking ticket books from which they can issue fines to their hearts content, but a security guard in any form is not a peace officer. A security guard has no legal authority to arrest or detain a tresspasser. Not even a citizen's arrest.

    Security guards can ask for your ID but they cannot compel you to show it. They are pretty much limited to informing you of your tresspass violation and escorting you off the property. If you refuse, they call the cops and the cops arrest you. If you act in an aggressive or threating manner or become verbally abusive they can execute a citizen's arrest and hold you for the troopers. Given Alaska's take on the "Castle Doctrine" an armed security guard can kill you in self defence should your aggressive or threatening behavior include anything that could be construed as a weapon. Similarly, if the security guard pulls a weapon in an attempt to extract your information, that would constitute armed/aggravated assault and how you would deal with that is your call.

    So, if you're navigation skills suck and you find yourself on native corporation land, and being confronted about it, the best the corporation can due is sue you, assuming they can find out who you are. Of course, they can collect all the fines you're willing to voluntarily pay.

    Now please do not interpret this post as me advocating hunters and fishermen ignore private property rights. The corportations are sovereign landowners and they have the right to limit and control access and activities on their land. Some corporations allow tresspass for a fee, some do not. For those that do, I suggest paying the fee if your plans include Native land.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik in AK View Post
    Um...the OP asked by what legal authority a private landowner can issue a fine. That was the question. He didn't ask "How do I get away with doing whatever the hell I want?"

    So, the question of how does a Native Corporation, as a private land owner levy a fine against a tresspasser? They can't. Oh, sure they can hire rent-a-cops and issue them official looking ticket books from which they can issue fines to their hearts content, but a security guard in any form is not a peace officer. A security guard has no legal authority to arrest or detain a tresspasser. Not even a citizen's arrest.

    Security guards can ask for your ID but they cannot compel you to show it. They are pretty much limited to informing you of your tresspass violation and escorting you off the property. If you refuse, they call the cops and the cops arrest you. If you act in an aggressive or threating manner or become verbally abusive they can execute a citizen's arrest and hold you for the troopers. Given Alaska's take on the "Castle Doctrine" an armed security guard can kill you in self defence should your aggressive or threatening behavior include anything that could be construed as a weapon. Similarly, if the security guard pulls a weapon in an attempt to extract your information, that would constitute armed/aggravated assault and how you would deal with that is your call.

    So, if you're navigation skills suck and you find yourself on native corporation land, and being confronted about it, the best the corporation can due is sue you, assuming they can find out who you are. Of course, they can collect all the fines you're willing to voluntarily pay.

    Now please do not interpret this post as me advocating hunters and fishermen ignore private property rights. The corportations are sovereign landowners and they have the right to limit and control access and activities on their land. Some corporations allow tresspass for a fee, some do not. For those that do, I suggest paying the fee if your plans include Native land.
    BINGO! Nice Post Erik. That is what the OP was looking for right there. And honestly what I was looking for since I had the same question.

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