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Thread: Proof of Traditional and Customary Use

  1. #1

    Default Proof of Traditional and Customary Use

    Check this out, subsistence fans. Is 1914 far enough back to qualify?

    http://content.lib.washington.edu/cd...SOBOX=1&REC=12

    Last edited by gr8fl; 03-14-2011 at 16:19. Reason: because the Whop does

  2. #2
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Ah, Fullbush is gonna have a cow!!! LMFAO. I like the picture dated 1934 that was submitted in 2008 at the BOF as an RC. It shows a native guy using a net made of alder and stitched together with leather strips, looks almost like todays dipnets. That was an eye opener too!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

  3. #3

    Default More proof

    How about this one? The caption says they've been doing it like this for thousands of years.

    http://www.nps.gov/history/history/o...is1/chap1c.htm


  4. #4
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Heck, I think that is the one that was entered into the record!!! I thought it was a guy but I guess dipping back then was women's work. So much for flip-flopping duties!!! Keep em coming!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

  5. #5

    Default 1919

    Abercrombie Canyon, Copper River, 1919
    I think that's a white guy.

    http://content.lib.washington.edu/cd...ISOBOX=1&REC=3



  6. #6

    Default 1917

    Copper River, 1917

    Is that a double or a triple or a ...?


    http://content.lib.washington.edu/cd...ISOBOX=1&REC=4



    Last edited by gr8fl; 03-14-2011 at 16:59. Reason: for political correctness

  7. #7
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Rep points coming your way, right after I spread the love!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

  8. #8

  9. #9

    Default More industrious methods







  10. #10
    Member fullbush's Avatar
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    hey gr8fl I see you've been doing some sleuthing. Like most tourists that relocated to the Rabbit Creek area you're just a little inaccurate and mis-informed in your racial profiling of the Ahtna Natives. I have cousins that are Aleuts and they have blond hair and blue eyes. Maybe you should check some factual lineage of this state I'm from before you go assuming anything. Maybe you should also refer to the dipnet wish list- here I'll do it for you--

    03-15-2010 #9
    fullbush
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    17. I wish the board would for once consider my proposal to open the culvert of Rabbit creek at Potters Marsh to dipping. I once got a ticket when I was 10 for dipping humpys there so I have historical and traditional usage documentation....
    18.I wish the ADF&G enforcement guys would let me hang 8" mesh into my dipnet, You know so I didn't get any incidental trout
    19. I wish a Fairbanks attorney would PM in regards to number 17 and 18 W/ your logic then I should be able to get my subsistence out of Rabbit Creek.


    Also heres another ditty for ya, those people that are in the pictures you presented, lived there thats why they were eligible for subsistence. They aren't some tourist from rabbit creek in his motorhome

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by fullbush View Post
    Like most tourists that relocated to the Rabbit Creek area ...
    Well, only part tourist with my 1975 19' Class C motorhome parked out at the garden. The other part of me was born here pre-statehood. Now I did relocate from Anchorage to Juneau to Girdwood to Sitka to Rabbit Creek, so you do have that part right.

    Quote Originally Posted by fullbush View Post
    I have cousins that are Aleuts and they have blond hair and blue eyes.
    Sure that's possible. Recessive genes in both parents who probably have Russian in their family tree. And I do see that you were there when this picture was taken, so I stand corrected.



    ~tr

  12. #12
    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    And here I thought that was Hem's boat. Just thought he downsided to one just a bit smaller than he had then.
    Hey FB, see... you have admitted to dipnetting. Just now coming out of the proverbial closet? Glad to see you have come over to the Dark side!!! Pack up your motorhome and come join the rest of us. HAHAHA
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    This thread cracked me up. FB, thewhop2000, and gr8fl I feel like you guys should have something on TV like a presidential debate. I'd watch it. Not saying you guys should be politicians, just saying you guys discussing fish topics would be worth watching.

  14. #14
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    More industrious methods

    Quote Originally Posted by gr8fl View Post





    Are you, by considering the above "industrious methods", in favor of fish traps and wholesale blockage of salmon runs?


    There are a few notable differences between the archival images you've posted and todays dipnetter.

    First of all, there isn't an R.V. in sight. Secondly as 'Bush noted the folks doing the netting are residents of that watershed. Also, it'd be a fair assumption that most of those salmon being caught where consumed by those doing the catching, not smoked, jarred, and shipped of as gifts.

    Likewise you can more than likely bet that the folks netting those fish weren't self deluded into believing that those salmon where more theirs than, say, their brethren downriver, or the commercial vessels offshore.

    Still getting over the idea that fish traps are considered "industrious", thats like saying a gas chamber was "efficient".....
    “Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously.” ― H.S.T.
    "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    ", thats like saying a gas chamber was "efficient".....

    Well they were, in truth that is.

    But on your other issue.

    As for the dippers and subsistence issues, there is in reality so little subsistence left in Alaska its not funny. Wanton waste is more the issue then who has first dibs at it. Always has been, always will be. The copper and the Kenai should have the same limit, for Personal use, and a permit for one OR the other, not both. The waste that goes on between them is disgusting.


    It is a little funny to me to see the same old argument, on a site i found last week, that has been playing out here the last half a century or longer. At least as i am aware.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    Are you, by considering the above "industrious methods", in favor of fish traps and wholesale blockage of salmon runs?
    To the contrary, my brother. The "industrious methods" are in clear distinction to us dippers who catch them a few at a time and pack them out on our backs. The off-topic pictures were intended to show that the dipnetting method, by virtue of its arduousness, doesn't lend itself to the ruination of the resource, in contrast to more "industrious", "ingenious", "efficient" methods that have been used all along as well.

  17. #17
    Member Albradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33outdoorsman View Post
    This thread cracked me up. FB, thewhop2000, and gr8fl I feel like you guys should have something on TV like a presidential debate. I'd watch it. Not saying you guys should be politicians, just saying you guys discussing fish topics would be worth watching.
    I WOULD TOTALLY VOTE....FULLBUSH FOR PRESIDENT 2012....Hey I could be your running mate
    There's a fine line between fishing....

    and standing on the shore like an idiot! ALLEN BRADLEY-TANGLE LAKES ADVOCATE/FANBOY

  18. #18
    Member .338-06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    There are a few notable differences between the archival images you've posted and todays dipnetter.

    First of all, there isn't an R.V. in sight. Secondly as 'Bush noted the folks doing the netting are residents of that watershed. Also, it'd be a fair assumption that most of those salmon being caught where consumed by those doing the catching, not smoked, jarred, and shipped of as gifts.

    Likewise you can more than likely bet that the folks netting those fish weren't self deluded into believing that those salmon where more theirs than, say, their brethren downriver, or the commercial vessels offshore.
    Hippie, do you really think that salmon weren't put up back then?

    I don't think I have more of a right to the fish I catch to eat, not for 'sport', than my brethren downriver, or the commercial vessels offshore. I just wish every commercial fisherman I've ever known felt that way. I'm sure some don't, I've just haven't met any yet.

    I also wish there were more enforcement on dipnetters, sportfishers, et al even though I still can't believe they count people's clams.
    I may be slow, but I get where I'm going!

  19. #19

    Default More Sleuthing

    Quote Originally Posted by fullbush View Post
    hey gr8fl I see you've been doing some sleuthing...you're just a little inaccurate and mis-informed in your racial profiling of the Ahtna Natives. I have cousins that are Aleuts and they have blond hair and blue eyes. Maybe you should check some factual lineage of this state I'm from before you go assuming anything.
    Okay, I've accepted the challenge of challenging FB's factuality.

    "Today there are eleven Athabascan languages in Alaska: Ahtna, Tanaina (also spelled Denaina), Holikachuk, Koyukon, Upper Kuskokwim, Tanana, Tanacross, Upper Tanana, Han, Kutchin (more correctly spelled "Gwich'in"), and Ingalik (more correctly Deg Hit'an). There are other Athabascan languages in Canada, and there are two well known Athabascan languages in the American Southwest: Apache and Navajo."
    http://www.aaanativearts.com/alaskan...athabascan.htm

    According to this source, Ahtna and Aleut are not the same language group or culture, so the guy in the picture is not likely mixed Russian/Aleut if he is Ahtna according to FB.

    Maybe he didn't mean Ahtna. Maybe he meant Eyak. If so...


    "Eyak is an extinct Na-Dené language that was historically spoken by the Eyak people, indigenous to southcentral Alaska, near the mouth of the Copper River.
    The closest relatives of Eyak are the Athabaskan languages. The Eyak-Athabaskan cluster, together with Tlingit, forms the basic division of the Na-Dené language phylum.
    Numerous Tlingit place names along the Gulf Coast are derived from names in Eyak; they have obscure or even nonsensical meanings in Tlingit, but oral tradition has maintained many Eyak etymologies. The existence of Eyak-derived Tlingit names along most of the coast towards southeast Alaska is strong evidence that the prehistoric range of Eyak was once far greater than it was at the time of European contact. This confirms both Tlingit and Eyak oral histories of migration throughout the region."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyak_language


    When I lived in Sitka, it was well known that the Aleut and Tlingit didn't get along very well. So, I really don't know what FB is talking about.


    I suspect that the guy in the photo was someone who traveled by railroad to do some dippin'. Who knows where he was from. Probably a tourist.

  20. #20

    Default Can you imagine?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaHippie View Post
    First of all, there isn't an R.V. in sight.
    Hippie, I'll bet you a nickel that any one of those guys would loooovvve to have an RV with plumbing, refrigeration, and a shower.

    On the other hand, maybe they did up on the railroad tracks, with bunks and home-cooked meals and everything.

    "The Copper River and Northwestern Railway was a railroad built by the Kennecott Corporation between 1907 and 1911 to take copper ore from Kennicott, Alaska to Cordova, Alaska, a distance of 315 km (196 miles). The railroad was built by thousands of workers, who laid tracks around glaciers, across canyons and through deep snow and avalanche areas..."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_...estern_Railway

    Talk about tourists, FB. Of the thousands of railroad workers, how many dipped?

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