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Thread: serious gun control question

  1. #1

    Default serious gun control question

    Ok so I might be naive but, it seems to me our right to bear arms was brought to us because of the opperssion of our forefathers who never wanted that to happen again. if the gov't became out of touch with the people they would have means to revolt, it also allowed them to be independant of the kings goods as it allowed the people to hunt.

    anyhow, there seems to be a push by many "americans" (not in my book) to ban firearms, one style at a time. my question is this:

    If firearms banning does occur, and civil war breaks out, who's team would you want to be on.....the one with ALL the guns, or the team with NO guns.......HMMMM? seems like a no brainer for me.

  2. #2
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Default

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    ---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

    Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.

    Patrick Henry 1788 (after the revolution)


    When the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor...
    George Mason

    Virginia Constituional Convention
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    Default 1 bullet at a time

    I truly do not understand the complete and total insanity that takes control of the minds of anti-gunners.

    But if they want my guns they can have them......1 bullet at a time.

    jedi

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    Member Alaskacajun's Avatar
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    Default

    What Jedi said.........

    - Clint

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jedi rifleman View Post
    I truly do not understand the complete and total insanity that takes control of the minds of anti-gunners.
    I am of the opinion that:

    1. There are huge amounts of propaganda out there that demonize gun owners and scare people into thinking that guns are dangerous and that they are only used for bad.

    2. There are efforts throughout our society to influence/brainwash people into thinking guns are bad, the 2nd Amendment is about hunting and self defense, and many other negative ideas that help to wash away our 2nd Amendment rights.

    3. The third and probably most difficult problem to deal with is the real reason behind the 2nd Amendment...having the means neccessary for a revolution if the need arises. I believe this is a very tough/sacry idea to face and many will hide from it rather than acknowledge it. The idea of taking up arms against a goverment, who you have thought for your entire life to be looking out for your best interest, is not a pleasent one and many people are probably in a state of denial over what the 2nd Amendment is all about.

    I will add that I have acquired my entire education in the State of Alaska from grade school to college and not once to my knowledge was the true nature of the 2nd Amendment ever taught or discussed. I can still remember discussing it with my old man liked I just figured out a secret or something and his response was something to the effect of "Well Duh". Needless to say he was a "little" amazed that it was not being taught.

    If you ask me these are very serious problems and is surely adding to the insanity that many experience from other people regarding the debate over the 2nd Amendment.

  6. #6

    Default Jake

    http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/53-2nd.pdf
    http://www.constitution.org/mil/militia_debate_1789.htm

    I posted these links on the original Zumbo thread. Since the State of Alaska and about 49 others are so busy teaching what the standardized testing industry has determined to be important, we have to educate ourselves.

    The act that eventually led to the Constitution was Shay's Rebellion. The Constitution provided for a revolution every two years. It's called an election. The constitution was not written in stone and could be amended. The founders expected it to be amended often. The founders had a consistent political philosophy grounded in the natural rights of man. They considered standing armies to be dangerous to liberty. A militia, the body of the people trained to arms, would always retain its civilian character. The professional military was to be held under strict civilian control. It is clear from the debate that the framers of the 2nd were concerned that future generations might use the pretext of being "religiously scrupulous" to deny individuals the right to keep and bear arms. They kept the language as tight as possible so that scoundrels couldn't twist the wording to deny the right to keep and bear arms. Yet, they had to be sure that they didn't paint themselves into a corner and totally exclude the possibility of a professional military. As much as they distrusted professional armies, they accepted the reality of the need. Up until after WW II the United States maintained a very small army in peace time. We are fortunate that we have such a long standing tradition of the military accepting civilian control.

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    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Those who beat swords into plowshares,,,, usually end up plowing for those who don't.

    Benjamin Franklin
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    Default broke logic

    The crazy thing I run into alot are anti 2nd Amendment people who love the 1st Amendment.

    They claim that the 2nd Amendment was written for muskets and dosent apply to semi-automatics.

    I point out that the first Amendment (by their same logic not mine) must have been written for voice, quill pen and manual printing presses only. Surely it wasn't meant for modern newspapers,TV or radio or any speech over a microphone PA system.

    I am informed by them that somehow all Amendments get special allowances except for the 2nd.

    At which point I realize why a lion will kill it's own young.

    jedi

  9. #9

    Default

    The Constitution and Bill Of Rights is taught only sparingly if at all in puplic schools.

    There's areason for that

  10. #10
    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Default

    Probably has something to do with UNESCO entering the schools before most of us were born in the 40's.

  11. #11
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    It does not help when 90% of the teachers are spending all their time either striking, getting ready for a strike or complaining about their pay.
    The other 10% posing for nuddy magazines or in court for being child molesters.

    We have a young society that knows more about porn stars and the brats of the rich, than it does about how to make a living and pay the bills......
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
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  12. #12

    Default Press

    ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS, the government controls the press. What you here is what they allow and it is a great propaganda tool. YEP, the government holds and issues all permits to broadcast in the good ole USA. So if it says guns are evil they are evil in the press.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

  13. #13

    Default While preparing to go on strike and checking my paycheck

    Guys,

    You hit a nerve.

    First, I am a 29 year teaching veteran. I teach in a semirural suburban school district where there are about six families farming full time. One of the things that motivated me to become a teacher when I was nearly 30 was a desire to be a balance to liberal ideologies which are mostly feel good intellectual mush. Throughout the years, I have made my American Hunter or American Rifleman magazines available to my students. I have shown them how to find the state's DNR wildlife, hunting and fishing pages. I have downloaded the .pdf files for the state's hunter safety course for students. If I hear them make anti-gun comments I give them the urls I posted on this thread. Even if they can't understand all the words they usually get the gist of the material, and at least they have been exposed to the facts. I've also reported kids who told me that they were using air rifles as substitutes for paint ball guns and their parents were also participating. (Our resource officer said there was nothing he could do until someone got injured. The welts the kids showed off to me and claimed to be bb marks suddenly were "I don't know where that came from" marks when they talked to him.) Being open in my interest in guns helped me get information that short circuited at least one shooting.

    I do not hide that I hunt. Kids have a natural interest in animals and they appreciate it if you provide them with facts not propaganda. You do not have to agree with my opinions to get a decent grade in my class, but you must back up your opinions with facts and/or examples.

    Two of my favorite hunting buddies are my superintendant and our guidance counselor. Our school board president is an avid hunter and big time supporter of Pheasants Forever.

    Last year I had a young lady who was in tears at the thought of bear hunting. We have an exotic animal collector in the area and he had allowed her to pet his grizzly sow. Searching for legitimate articles about bears is how I came upon the the Alaska Outdoor Forums. Instead of dismissing her opinion or shaking my head and telling her she was wrong I gave her an extra-credit assignment researching bear behavior and habitat. She was armed only with a computer, some urls, and a brain. When she handed in the work she told me that I was right and bears did need to be hunted.

    While there is a perception among some conservatives that public schools are where we send children to have their minds poisoned with liberal thought and propaganda, I have not found that to be true in the district where I work. (Notice that I didn't make an absolute blanket statement about something where I have no personal experience?) Are there far left liberal professors teaching in colleges of education. Absolutely! Do you have to parrot their beliefs to pass their classes. Unfortunately! Do you have to believe a word they say. NEVER! You have to play the game so you can go out and make a difference. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

    Rain Gull, please show me where the UNESCO office is located in my public school. I've never run across it.

    Float Pilot, you've accounted for 100% of the teachers and none of what you've described seems to apply to me. Does that mean I'm not a teacher?

    THE TESTING INDUSTRY drives today's curriculum. Teachers are hired to deliver that curriculum. When it comes to the constitution, what students need to know in order to pass the citizenship portions of the proficiency/achievement/exit tests is that the United States is a republican democracy. (I am old enough to have been taught that it is a republic.) There are three branches of government. The Constitution is a "living" document. (Just what is a "living" document? Does that mean the politicians can declare an open season on it? If it was dead would it be as dangerous to their ambitions?) The Supreme Court determines what the Constitution and laws mean. (What about the Congress and Executive? When did their responsibilities to interpret and uphold the Constitution vanish?) If they did have an item about the second amendment you would have to answer that it is not an individual right and that it pertains only to the states being able to call out the national guard. If you didn't you wouldn't get credit for a correct answer.

    Public education is a political act perpetrated on children. You can't expect it to be totally apolitical. It should never be openly partisan, either Democratic spin or Republican spin. Most teachers I know are pretty moderate if not downright conservative in their views and how they teach. If you aren't, the super's phone is going to wring off the hook about what you are doing to indoctrinate kids, and next year you will be as unemployed as Jim Zumbo.

    I would venture that most of the liberal ideas and propaganda that get conservatives' panties in a bunch, come out of large city school administrative bureaucracies or state departments of education. The logical reason is that their immediate supervisors are political appointees. They are just trying to please the masters. I personally do not know one teacher that supports the NEA as the spokesperson for all teachers.

    We owe it to kids to teach them to learn how to differentiate facts, opinions, and propaganda. Someday they will become adults and have to make responsible decisions based on what we have taught or have not taught them.

    The only people who fear facts are the ones that know they are wrong. We need to convert as many antis as possible and not offend our friends. We don't need to validate the antis' tactics of going on emotional rants and bullying by engaging in them ourselves.

    Repeat after me. I will not go off half cocked. I will not . . .

  14. #14
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Float Pilot, you've accounted for 100% of the teachers and none of what you've described seems to apply to me. Does that mean I'm not a teacher?
    No, you are a patriot and a professional educator. Unfortunately there will not be many to replace you in our current trend.
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
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    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Default

    Are you saying that UNESCO has had no infuence in the school system? Or that it has had a positive influence?

    Who said they had an office in your school?

  16. #16

    Default Float Plane

    Thanks for the kind words, but I'm just trying to do my job. I see firearms instructor on your tag. IMO what you do is far more important than what goes on in the No Child Left Untested educational sytem that we have. Safe and responsible handling of firearms is in the old school way of thinking a moral imperative. When someone who is not famliar with firearms sees, hears about, or reads about their misuse they fall back to stereotypes and lump all of us together as dangerous.

    Compared to thirty years ago, I would have to say that we are in far better shape as far as gun rights go. The assault weapons ban was not reauthorized. More and more states are adopting concealed carry laws. Some states have passed, and other states are considering laws that guarantee the right of self defense in one's home. In my state the legislature passed and then overrode a veto of a bill that prevented cities from using home rule as an excuse to override the state's concealed carry laws. There are more private shooting ranges and firearms instructors than there were some years ago. We just must remain vigilent about things like the HR 1022.

    It doesn't help our cause when criminal or terrorist groups call themselves things like the Michigan Militia. The KKK tried to legitimize themselves by calling themselves a militia. Certainly the NRA has called upon legislatures to pass laws that deal swift and severe justice to those who commit crimes with firearms.

    I don't know about you, I certainly do not want to go back to the days when corporations hired private militias (today known as private security companies) to do violence to men trying to unionize for their betterment. Or worse, when corrupt governors, in the hip pockets of the mining companies, called out the state militias and used deadly force to break strikes.

    The term militia has been thrown about so carelessly by the media that I would wager that most people actually believe that the armed thugs in Iraq actually constitute militias. The press has totally blurred the lines among organized terrorists, private armies, mercenary armies, and militias. Criminal enterprises should never be confused with militias.

    Float Pilot, I think your grievance is not with the majority of classroom teachers. But there is a lot of room to be honked off at the politicized part of public education. Big cities in the US are mostly run by left leaning Democratic mayors and city councils. The first step in showing that you can get votes is to get elected to the city school board. Layers of federal and state regulations have lead to a bloated bureaucracy of political syncophants. They confuse education with political indoctrination. Since they have no idea what a militia really is and have a built in anti gun bias they short change those parts of the constitution they don't find relevant to their philosophies. The Republicans paint a doom and gloom picture of public education because the NEA lost its mind and became an auxiliary of the Democratic party. IMO all the bashing is just political payback without regards to the consequences for kids today and the nation tomorrow. The powers that be have turned their backs on posterity for immediate political gains.

    We will lose our liberty much quicker if we don't teach kids the art of political etiquette and reasoned debate, than if we produce fewer engineers per year than India.

  17. #17
    Member Alaskacajun's Avatar
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    Default Gun Control Witness

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmFFqEXPlaI

    I think I like her... a lot!

    - Clint

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    Flyer55,

    My public education experience is isolated to the Anchorage School District so for this discussion my statements are geared toward the ASD. When I look back on my education my biggest grievences(sp) are with the curriculum and punishment standards not with teachers. I think there are probably a lot of good teachers out there that have their hands tied behind their back by the curriculum.

    Recently their was an article in the Achorage Daily News detailing how a teacher in Juneau was teacher gun safety in a public elementary school. I believe the kids were even shooting either pellet guns or .22s. All I can say is if there were more of these types of programs the country would be in far better shape.

    Here is an interesting interview with a man named Norman Dodd that deals with various group that try and influence the public education system. All I am going to say is that it is interesting and jaw dropping. Is is true? I have no idea, but ole Norman sure does not come off as a liar to me.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...man+Dodd&hl=en

  19. #19

    Default Rain Gull

    Probably has something to do with UNESCO entering the schools before most of us were born in the 40's.

    I have never been solicited to use or required to use any materials from UNESCO, nor have I ever been asked to research or evaluate any UNESCO materials in any of my undergraduate or graduate courses.

    The biggest thing driving the curriculum today is the No Child Left Behind legislation. It has IMO given carte blanche to companies like ETS and the text book publishers. It has given rise to a whole new school improvement industry and the whole premise was that in the late 1970's American students were doing worse on some standardized tests than foreign students were. The assertion was that unless we caught up on the test scores we would lose our preeminant postion as the world's economic super power by the turn of the century. That predicition has obviously not come true, yet it is accepted as dogma.

    Schools teach to the tests these days. Text books conform to the tests not the other way around. These books have to be approved by state departments of education. The economics of publishing means that what California, Texas, and NY want the rest of us get stuck with. Private schools do not get a larger choice of texts because there are no alternatives.

    I wouldn't worry too much about UNESCO, one world gvt., open borders etc. being a big emphasis in schools. There may be instances of individual teachers going off the reservation and espousing those ideas and demanding students to conform to his ideas or get a bad grade. But there are the same type of ideologs on the right. I think the only people who believe that the UN is relevant to anything are the people who work there.

    When someone starts hollering about that stuff keep your eyes and ears open, your head down, and your hand on your wallet because the solicitation for funds to fight the evil ideas isn't far behind.

    I'm saying that where I work UNESCO is irrelevant and the Second Amendment isn't high up on the testing company's list of priorities.
    Last edited by Flyer55; 02-27-2007 at 21:34. Reason: correction of error

  20. #20

    Default 2nd Amendment

    The sun now sets on the British empire in part because of the rights enumerated in the 2nd ammendment.

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