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Thread: 460 Smith shooters beware Buffalo Bore Ammo

  1. #1
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    Default 460 Smith shooters beware Buffalo Bore Ammo

    This is a warning to any 460 Smith shooters reguarding Buffalo Bore ammunintion.

    Yesterday I purchased a box of 360gr Cast BB ammo at the sportsmans warehouse in Anchorage, AK. When fired from a Smith Xframe 460 first shot locked up the cylinder. We had to use a rawhide mallet to knock the cylinder back out. The brass showed massive pressure signs, it even blew the primer right out of the gun. Tried a second shot with same results, locked up cylinder and primer blown out of fired brass. Needless to say we did not shoot any more of this ammo.

    After searching in vain for a phone number to Buffalo bore a messege was left on BB contact form. This is the responce We recievd.

    "-----Original Message-----
    From: Tim Sundles [mailto:ammo@blackfoot.net]
    Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 2:16
    PMTo: suntiet@alaskacustomfirearms.com
    Cc: 'M Wayne Brown'
    Subject: RE: Contact Form Sent

    Yes we know exactly what is going on. We developed our 460 loads based on early S&W revolvers--everything workedgreat. Then, S&W in their infinite wisdom, made some changes in theirchamber throats and barrel throats, which raised pressuresdramatically..........Since S&W made those changes, we've watered down our460 loads to accommodate the changes in the gun. You have some older, abouttwo years old 460 ammo, which will work great, the way it was designed to inthe earlier S&W 460 revolvers. Simply stop using it in that gun. IF you havea first year production S&W, it will work great in that gun.......sorry forthe trouble, but it was S&W that made the changes, (without telling any ammomakers) not us. When we first discovered the changes in the new &SW 460's,I'll bet I wrote a hundred emails like this one. Take care. Tim"

    This seems like a pretty poor responce to me. Luckily after calling the Sportsmans ware house they said they would return the ammunition. They weren't going to at first but after hearing BB responce they said they would return or exchange the ammo.

    As far as I can tell there isn't any Lot numbers on BB ammo.

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    Any pictures?

  3. #3
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thebear_78 View Post
    This is a warning to any 460 Smith shooters reguarding Buffalo Bore ammunintion.

    Yesterday I purchased a box of 360gr Cast BB ammo at the sportsmans warehouse in Anchorage, AK. When fired from a Smith Xframe 460 first shot locked up the cylinder. We had to use a rawhide mallet to knock the cylinder back out. The brass showed massive pressure signs, it even blew the primer right out of the gun. Tried a second shot with same results, locked up cylinder and primer blown out of fired brass. Needless to say we did not shoot any more of this ammo.

    After searching in vain for a phone number to Buffalo bore a messege was left on BB contact form. This is the responce We recievd.

    "-----Original Message-----
    From: Tim Sundles [mailto:ammo@blackfoot.net]
    Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 2:16
    PMTo: suntiet@alaskacustomfirearms.com
    Cc: 'M Wayne Brown'
    Subject: RE: Contact Form Sent

    Yes we know exactly what is going on. We developed our 460 loads based on early S&W revolvers--everything workedgreat. Then, S&W in their infinite wisdom, made some changes in theirchamber throats and barrel throats, which raised pressuresdramatically..........Since S&W made those changes, we've watered down our460 loads to accommodate the changes in the gun. You have some older, abouttwo years old 460 ammo, which will work great, the way it was designed to inthe earlier S&W 460 revolvers. Simply stop using it in that gun. IF you havea first year production S&W, it will work great in that gun.......sorry forthe trouble, but it was S&W that made the changes, (without telling any ammomakers) not us. When we first discovered the changes in the new &SW 460's,I'll bet I wrote a hundred emails like this one. Take care. Tim"

    This seems like a pretty poor responce to me. Luckily after calling the Sportsmans ware house they said they would return the ammunition. They weren't going to at first but after hearing BB responce they said they would return or exchange the ammo.

    As far as I can tell there isn't any Lot numbers on BB ammo.
    Let me get this straight... S&W made a change which dramatically changed the allowable pressures in their firearms, unilaterally and without notice to anyone... and you blame the ammo maker?

    Further, you admit to firing a SECOND ROUND?!?!?!?! WTH were you thinking?!?!?!

    Being more than a little aware of the issue and never having owned the firearm in question leads me to believe the changes are well-documented. I would be mighty POed at SW for selling the stuff and even more so at S&W for the secret changes to their handgun.

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    If he knew there was a problem with the ammo he should have made sure to get it off of the shelves, as in recall it. I seriously doubt that Sportsmans would risk selling it if they knew of a problem with that ammo. I'm sure thats why they offered to take it back. It might not be right that S&W would change thier design without some sort of warning to the ammo maker but its still buffalo bore on the side of that box of shells and it clearly states on the top of that box, intended for 460 S&W. There was no disclaimer about first year production Xframes. He is ultimately responsble for the ammo he produces.

  5. #5

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    TheBear, Im assuming this ammo was newly purchased at SW. Why does Tim say your ammo is two years old?
    Tim, does that ammo type still bear a label that says it is intended for S&W460?

  6. #6
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thebear_78 View Post
    If he knew there was a problem with the ammo he should have made sure to get it off of the shelves, as in recall it. I seriously doubt that Sportsmans would risk selling it if they knew of a problem with that ammo. I'm sure thats why they offered to take it back. It might not be right that S&W would change thier design without some sort of warning to the ammo maker but its still buffalo bore on the side of that box of shells and it clearly states on the top of that box, intended for 460 S&W. There was no disclaimer about first year production Xframes. He is ultimately responsble for the ammo he produces.
    Bad enough you expect Tim to make good on S&W's secret changes but now you expect him to know what S&W was doing before they did it?!?!?! How could he intuit a disclaimer BEFORE they made the changes???

    A couple things to consider... SW is just coming out of a huge "State of Flux" if you will over their bankruptcy and divesting of assets. Part of that resulted in lots of product rising to the surface at odd times... I have seen lots of old stock stuff sitting on the shelves in several departments...

    Since I heard about the issue a long time ago I am certain SW did too. They chose to sell the ammo and whoever found it did not know the problem...

    I blame S&W first, SW second, and find it tough to stretch the culpability blanket to BB...
    YMMV

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    Obvious question that needs to be answered: Why is BB the only cartridge manufacturer with this issue? All the other brands of ammo seem to work OK in the later and earlier S&W .460s so there is more here than meets the eye.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Obvious question that needs to be answered: Why is BB the only cartridge manufacturer with this issue? All the other brands of ammo seem to work OK in the later and earlier S&W .460s so there is more here than meets the eye.
    You are kidding, right?

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Maybe SW didn't get the notice. S&W is not the only gun outfit screwing up lately as in two weeks two new Rugers have had their barrel break off on the first shot
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    Obvious question that needs to be answered: Why is BB the only cartridge manufacturer with this issue? All the other brands of ammo seem to work OK in the later and earlier S&W .460s so there is more here than meets the eye.
    Because BB was loading the hottest ďspecialtyĒ type ammo for the 460 a couple years ago and it is still way under the 65Kpsi spec in the early run of guns. They are not the only ones that had issues when Smith started tinkering . . . nobody said a word but for some reason Corbon 395s suddenly got 200fps slower too. Itís only logical that the front dog will come to the bear blocking the trail first, BB being the front dog at the time in 460 ammo. I agree with Hap here, makes more sense to recall the changed guns that the unchanged ammo and how is it Timís fault that SW sat on that ammo for 2 years.

    Now the other side is that Tim is stretched too far and as a result BB customer service suffers, he flat out said he has no time to handle it like he wishes he could. I donít think the 460 ammo issue is his fault but the perception people get is Ďtoo bad so sad now go awayí from the way he handles complaints. If this happened in my business (and many similar things have) I would make my customer whole no matter whose fault it was . . . I have a policy, if Iím not willing to buy it back I wonít sell it in the first place! I donít want all the anger and ill feelings directed at my business so even if itís not my problem I will see to it that it doesnít stay my customerís problem. Having poor service doesnít mean the product is bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Maybe SW didn't get the notice. S&W is not the only gun outfit screwing up lately as in two weeks two new Rugers have had their barrel break off on the first shot
    what model rugers Will?



    Release Lake Trout

  12. #12
    hap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    Maybe SW didn't get the notice. S&W is not the only gun outfit screwing up lately as in two weeks two new Rugers have had their barrel break off on the first shot
    I guarantee SW got the memo... Everybody paying attention had to have seen it... The thing that happened here (assuming this is a fresh event with newly purchased ammo) was a company in disarray managed to let some old stock ammo sit (it may very well have been sitting because it was pulled when S&W made the changes) and then later put it on the shelf when no one in general knew of the BB problem.
    art

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    Fwiw, I've had no problems with hornady and corbon ammunition in my 460. Thanks for the post. I'll stick with these brands.

  14. #14
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I have had no trouble with BB and DT so I'll stick with those. The Rugers were a RH and GP
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

  15. #15

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    I have what you called the first run 460 and had this problem with BB ammunition never had it with any other but I do recall the massive amount of posts about people callimg BB with concerns to overpressure signs and most people were blown off from what I read. I believe the fix is simple just stay away from BB ammo for the 460 unless BB comes out with a way to say these are our earlier runs of ammo or a lot number for the new run but I do not see that on the box.

  16. #16

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    ADfields, I like this. Makes sense.
    "Itís only logical that the front dog will come to the bear blocking the trail first."

    FWIW, I have never had any trouble with BB ammo, and I will continue to use it. But, I'd like to see Tim chime in here, and clarify any questions we have.

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