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Thread: Guiding History.......???

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    Default Guiding History.......???

    So when did "Guides" appear in the Hunting realm???

    I remember reading about a Russian prince Hunting with Buffalo Bill, while the West was being conquered, but when did "Guides" start becoming an "Industry" as they are now??

    How long ago did the State of Alaska mandate nonres hunters have Guides for Browngrizz , Sheep and Goats? Maby back in the territory days?
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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    I think the guide thing realy started in Africa and India.American trappers worked as guides in off season
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    So, maby the 1800's Amigo?..........seems a Brittish invention.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    So when did "Guides" appear in the Hunting realm???

    I remember reading about a Russian prince Hunting with Buffalo Bill, while the West was being conquered, but when did "Guides" start becoming an "Industry" as they are now??

    How long ago did the State of Alaska mandate nonres hunters have Guides for Browngrizz , Sheep and Goats? Maby back in the territory days?
    In Alaska officially about 1907. Kidder was on a "guided" hunt around 1903. Like most "histories" pretty interesting.
    Joe

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    lots of guiding in our history done by indigenous peoples...native americans, and canadian natives in certain places have a deep history in guiding. the western yukon, northern tip of southeast alaska, northwest territories, are a few places i know for sure that have native families with hunting guides going back many generations...

    the native boudin (not sure if i spelled that right)peoples of the desert in africa have guided travelers through some of the harshest country on our planet since people have been interested in exploring it...long time

    most of the early arctic exploration incorporated eskimo guides...

    alot of the big rocks in the korakorom range and the himalayan mountains where climbed with sherpa guides at one point or other...

    market hunters and guys like frank glaser incorporated guiding cheechakos and trapping into there list of ways to pay for there next grubstake...as is evident in reardons book.

    a long history of guiding in africa and india

    the history of active guiding in alaska is relatively new when compared with the use of guides in our worlds history...most major form of exploration that i've read or know about in our history has had the necessity of incorporating some form of guide when treading in foreign waters or land...hey stranger...if you were to wake up in tanzania in the morning...new place right? pretty hot, a little different from the banks of the kobuk...so you want to get the hell back to the kobuk right? first thing i'd do is find me a local that new a thing or two about the trail home and make a deal...just hired a guide. people been doing it all over the world for eons...guiding hunters is just one form. possibly us guides on the forum make a big toodoo about the whole guiding gig...thats just cause we care. when it all boils down to it its just a profession, theres good ones and bad ones...it does happen to be a profession that is extremely rewarding and all bs aside, its a true joy to watch someone have the trip of a lifetime before your eyes in the course of a hunt. hard to explain. you mentioned in another thread just tonight that the main reason guides guide is for money...thats just not it for me. guiding for me is a lifestyle choice and a passion, i'm a welder... if i wanted to make money i'd go to the slope, or open a shop. such is the case for many guides i know who have many other skills...

    i know i know, little off track there, but thats what came to mind about guiding in general when i read strangers post...

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    Your right ninefoot. The oldest guiding outfitt in Yukon is the outfitt in Western Yukon owned by a native family since the early 1900s. Great family I worked for them guiding sheep in the early 90s.

    Watch the Alcan around the signpost forest in Watson Lake... they are trying to get a statue made of a `guide` the native population there has a long rich history of guiding. The most famous by far Skook Davis is just one of hundreds in the trench country of BC. The NWT not so much.

    Up until about the late 80s Watson Lake was the `hub` each fall for the vast majority of guided big game hunts. Some very famous people were very well known by a lot of the locals, Chuck Yeager, Jack O'Connor just to name two. The old Watson Lake flying service had some incredible photos hanging on its walls when I first started flying out of there 25 years ago.

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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    The idea of a guide probably arose in medieval Europe and could be closely linked with the gamekeeper role on a feudal estate. Seems like there have been guides in Alaska from the mid-1800s on although up until about 1900 those guides seem to have been employed more for local knowledge and route finding rather than hunting skills specifically.

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    Close, 9foot, but I dont think you caught my question; prehaps I wasnt clear.......maby "guide" is too general.....anyhoo, I'm wondering about the history of Guides like you, who take $$ to take 'Hunters' out on the land to shoot animals fopr a trophy, be it a skin, horns or antlers, and even more so, when did it occure in Alaska........?

    No one to guide me 'round the museum, hunt for my expeditions food or get me back to home, Im specifficly asking about "The Guide Industry", the rewarding profession that employs you.

    Some people like their 'jobs' so much, their "Work is Play" as the 'Nuge sang in 'Working Hard, playing Hard"


    I'd imagine you have to do something else for work on the off season, seems seasonal work is the rule of thumb for such a job.
    I too enjoy seeing people hunt along, peticularly my 7 kids and now my grand kids, catch and process their animlas, and contribute to the Family well being, no matter how small the Meat........as well as having taken them along on most of my constant travels, even today, here in kotz with my 8 year old daughter.
    Hunting is my lifestyle, year round, but I have found ways of making my ends meet by being a Hunter, not a Guide, and Im reasding and learing, askin questions.
    The only Guides Ive met, maby a couple dozen+ over the years fly up this way each fall and talk "Money, Money, money, How much that animals worth, how many guys can they squeeze in, ect........granted its a business, but the values comming from thier mouths arnt ethics, its $$$$
    Thats my experiance , in person , so far, untill I started reading this Forum, and now Im asking questions, to better my understanding

    Even my wifes cousin, Art Feilds, a Native Polar Bear Hunting Guide from Kotzebue did his thang for 50+ years, as a Guide, gold miner, dog racer, yet when we visit, when he referrs to hunts, $$$ is always part of his topic when it comes to storys about John Wayne, NFL players, ect.

    Still Im wondering when this "industry" sprang up to cater to those who pay to shoot 'Trophys'
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    Default Art Fields

    Is Art still alive? If so, he can probably tell you lots about the "guiding industry" being he is one of the last "polar bear guides". Art took me for a ride in his cub when we hunted off the Noatak in 1996 (I think). He had just sold his land to one of his former guides. Great moose hunting but I can't afford to hire a "guided" hunt.
    As far as the state requirements - they have come in parts - first griz, then sheep, then goats.
    I hunted Mt. Goat in August 1971 and I know there was no requirement for a non-resident to hire a guide to hunt goats at that time. The "industry" has evolved with time. On August 16 I will post my story about hunting Mt. goats as it will be exactly 40 years. I will say - I was successful.

    Also, nothing was said about - same day air for hunting or - wanton waste regulations. They may have been in effect at that time but nothing was said by anyone.

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    "The Kenai Peninsula gamelands were essentially unregulated until May 1908, when Congress passed (and President Roosevelt signed) a law providing for major revisions to the Alaska Game Law of June 7, 1902. The 1908 law mandated that all Alaska hunting guides be licensed; in addition, the law recognized both the popularity and the fragility of the Kenai gamelands when it demanded that all Kenai Peninsula sport hunters be accompanied by a licensed guide. No other Alaska hunting grounds were singled out with this requirement. The law helped ensure the continuity of the Kenai game resource."

    http://www.nps.gov/history/history/o.../hrs/hrs10.htm

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    Interesting prospective.

    As a guide, I do take people out hunting and assist them in harvesting game. The money generated from this activity goes for clothing and food and shelter and convenances we can afford. Our family uses some of the meat and the rest is given to others. Over the years the meat produced from these hunts has been provided to families in both urban and rural Alaska. The horns/antlers and/or skin are taken by the client; processed and usually displayed on some wall – much like art work created on dried seal skins and other articles produced from animals harvested by hunting.

    The first concern, regardless of “why” the animal is harvested, is that it be used. Whether it is harvested on a guided hunt or harvested in a rural setting and exchanged for “gas” money or “bullets” the animal is being used support someone’s family. Getting gas money to get a couple caribou for someone, then getting to keep the four additional animals harvested, is being “paid”. The only difference is the “currency” - meat rather than dollars.

    I harbor no illusion that any of the above will modify your attitude about guiding. I am resigned to the fact that our differences on this issue (though we do seem to be in agreement about the brown/grizzly issue) are probably culturally based, and probably will not be resolved since I am NOT from Montana.
    Joe


    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    Close, 9foot, but I dont think you caught my question; prehaps I wasnt clear.......maby "guide" is too general.....anyhoo, I'm wondering about the history of Guides like you, who take $$ to take 'Hunters' out on the land to shoot animals fopr a trophy, be it a skin, horns or antlers, and even more so, when did it occure in Alaska........?

    No one to guide me 'round the museum, hunt for my expeditions food or get me back to home, Im specifficly asking about "The Guide Industry", the rewarding profession that employs you.

    Some people like their 'jobs' so much, their "Work is Play" as the 'Nuge sang in 'Working Hard, playing Hard"


    I'd imagine you have to do something else for work on the off season, seems seasonal work is the rule of thumb for such a job.
    I too enjoy seeing people hunt along, peticularly my 7 kids and now my grand kids, catch and process their animlas, and contribute to the Family well being, no matter how small the Meat........as well as having taken them along on most of my constant travels, even today, here in kotz with my 8 year old daughter.
    Hunting is my lifestyle, year round, but I have found ways of making my ends meet by being a Hunter, not a Guide, and Im reasding and learing, askin questions.
    The only Guides Ive met, maby a couple dozen+ over the years fly up this way each fall and talk "Money, Money, money, How much that animals worth, how many guys can they squeeze in, ect........granted its a business, but the values comming from thier mouths arnt ethics, its $$$$
    Thats my experiance , in person , so far, untill I started reading this Forum, and now Im asking questions, to better my understanding

    Even my wifes cousin, Art Feilds, a Native Polar Bear Hunting Guide from Kotzebue did his thang for 50+ years, as a Guide, gold miner, dog racer, yet when we visit, when he referrs to hunts, $$$ is always part of his topic when it comes to storys about John Wayne, NFL players, ect.

    Still Im wondering when this "industry" sprang up to cater to those who pay to shoot 'Trophys'

  12. #12
    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
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    Some of the earliest "professional" guiding began in the Adirondacks of New York as early as the 1820's. Wealthy "sports" would take the train out of New York City to Albany then go by overland coach to Herkimer NY where they'd transfer to horse/mule trains and go north into what is now Adirondack State Park.
    In 1825, after the Erie Canal was completed sports would take luxury barges to Herkimer.
    The guides were locals who knew the area and how to find fish and game.

    The Maine guides are of about the same vintage only they catered to sports from Boston and Hartford.

    I imagine our American notions of guiding as a profession began there.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

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    The only Guides Ive met, maby a couple dozen+ over the years fly up this way each fall and talk "Money, Money, money, How much that animals worth, how many guys can they squeeze in, ect........granted its a business, but the values comming from thier mouths arnt ethics, its $$$$
    We must meet entirely different guides then. I know a few current and former guides, as well as numerous assistant guides. I can't remember a single conversation with them that revolved around how much money they charge or what their opperations make. The usually tell great stories of hunts they were one, stories about great clients, and a bit of whining about crappy clients thrown in. Late November is one of my favorite times of the year. Many of these guys will stop by the store and we'll share stories of the hunting season past. They also love to talk about guns, bows and airplanes. The same stuff many of us other hunters love to talk about. I honestly don't know any "rich" guides, but I know a few that make a decent living at it. Most of these guys can't wait for brakes in customers so they can have time for their own hunting.

    Think of the guides we know from this board. How many talk about all the money they make? Two come immediately to mind that love to tell the stories about great clients... BRWNBR and Muskeg. Even AGL4now doesn't talk about the money he made, never heard it from Joe Want, Mike Strahan or ninefoot either.
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    With a little imagination its easy to see probably the first guide in Alaska was some native paid in blue trade beads during the Russian Period circa 1740-1800 as they advanced across the Aleutian Chain on the march East wreaking havoc and destruction to the cultures in their path.

    In the American Period post 1867, the first known paid guide on the Kenai was Andrew Berg ~1897. But I wouldn't be surprised to hear of others before him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    "...We must meet entirely different guides then...."
    Think of the guides we know from this board. How many talk about all the money they make? Two come immediately to mind that love to tell the stories about great clients... BRWNBR and Muskeg. Even AGL4now doesn't talk about the money he made, never heard it from Joe Want, Mike Strahan or ninefoot either.
    Money? The one thing most guides can agree to is "being happy money is not controlled by the Department of the Interior". For, if they did control money it would surely be classified as an "ENDANGERED SPECIES".
    Joe

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    "I harbor no illusion that any of the above will modify your attitude about guiding. I am resigned to the fact that our differences on this issue (though we do seem to be in agreement about the brown/grizzly issue) are probably culturally based, and probably will not be resolved since I am NOT from Montana.
    Joe"

    Well, Joe, as Ive said before, Guides, Hunters, fishermen, lumberjacks, ect , we all make a living from our various uses of he land, our great something in common..
    I have no doubt that this kind of hunting has many benifits for you and yours as does mine, for my family and community.

    My question was about the history of the "industry" as you yourself call it. What the ****s wrong with learing more on a subject I never gave a second thought to. and once on this site, can conversate with such who do these things??

    Because I went to high school a couple years in Montana didnt relly cloud my mind on this subject , its not where Im "From" ~~LOL!!~~ but it was, of many places in the southern 49, that I have spent time in~~LOL!!~~

    I understand that there IS a cultural difference.

    AKdoug,
    I honestly have sat , mny a time, over maps, drinks, meat and such, and listened to the $$$ talk.
    Now the packers and assistance are a different conversation, those guys really are enjoying what they are up to, though they are not Guides and their sweat is watering the Tundra, as well Ive done S& R for Guides and emergeny housing when weather had 15 guys with no gear land near our Salmon camp. I have stopped to them , and they have stopped to me, and exchanged info....my opinion is formed from interaction, not observation or reading.
    I know the "Local Boys" and where guides set up shop here in Kotzebue, (TRC shop, NWaviation, Pauly's, ect.) and meet plenty, as my wife used to sell them artwork when cabellas army invaded. we are often on our way home from our summers wanderings and we used to make $$ on that exact stop by Kotz, so I know.

    ""Think of the guides we know from this board. How many talk about all the money they make? Two come immediately to mind that love to tell the stories about great clients... BRWNBR and Muskeg. Even AGL4now doesn't talk about the money he made, never heard it from Joe Want, Mike Strahan or ninefoot either.""

    Spot on, AKdoug.

    Fact is, nobody here on this forum discusses $$$ for these trips, and THAT alone is what makes reading here plenty good, and wipe the **** off the story.
    Yep, and these are the guys that make me take a second look at the Guiding industry and ask these questions.

    So far, its Berg in 1897......

    I recently read about a guy named Schoonover how brought a hunting party for Trophy Walrus in 1903.
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by tustumena_lake View Post
    With a little imagination its easy to see probably the first guide in Alaska was some native paid in blue trade beads during the Russian Period circa 1740-1800 as they advanced across the Aleutian Chain on the march East wreaking havoc and destruction to the cultures in their path.

    In the American Period post 1867, the first known paid guide on the Kenai was Andrew Berg ~1897. But I wouldn't be surprised to hear of others before him.
    That is interesting. As I read those accounts of "first encounters" my impression were the russians were not exactly welcomed with "open arms".
    Joe

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    "
    "...t , we all make a living from our various uses of he land, our great something in common..
    I have no doubt that this kind of hunting has many benifits for you and yours as does mine, for my family and community..."
    That is great! I sense PROGRESS! Tomorrow (we'll take it slow) perhaps we can work on the fact that guides also make contributions to their communities via such organizations as the Food Bank and often to other communities with such items as meat, heads, skinned legs or other items that maybe used locally. Should we, as guides, be doing more, absolutely - but then that can be said about just about everyone.
    We all want to provide for our families, our communities and hopefully help those in need. We all worry about our kids if they are having health or drinking (drugs) or any other problems. That does not change regardless of whether one lives in some small rural community or down town Anchorage (thought not certain why down town Anchorage).
    Joe

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    ""Well, Joe, as Ive said before, Guides, Hunters, fishermen, lumberjacks, ect , we all make a living from our various uses of he land, our great something in common..
    I have no doubt that this kind of hunting has many benifits for you and yours as does mine, for my family and community.""

    Hey, glad you caught that this time around, though I am quoteing myself........


    Still for a question about 'when did the Guiding Industry start doing its thang in AK' seems to get some seriously weird answers and innotations..



    Did I ask a wrong question or what? Maybe tomarrow, if we take it slow, ill ask another question, and with enough contemplation, get an answer in a couple more days......

    I prehaps should have asked about Jello pudding pops, ........naaa, I'da gotten the same

    Anyway, Ill go look for answers on the History of Paid Hunting Guides, it seems too interesting to dig outta here........
    Thanks
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post

    Did I ask a wrong question or what? Maybe tomarrow, if we take it slow, ill ask another question, and with enough contemplation, get an answer in a couple more days......
    "...How long ago did the State of Alaska mandate nonres hunters have Guides for Browngrizz , Sheep and Goats? Maby back in the territory days?...".

    I thought that portion of your original post was answered as being 1907 (or 1908). Certainly as previously indicated Kidder was on a "guided" hunt about 1903 and Berg was apparently employed to guide about 1897. Guess I'm not certain what you are looking for, so, starting anew tomorrow may be a good idea.
    Joe

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