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Thread: ftlb energy minimums for large game?

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    Default ftlb energy minimums for large game?

    Hello all,
    I've been wondering what "they" say are the minimums at various ranges for moose and bears etc. I'm reloading quite a bit and I found a load that is so accurate it's scary, but it's on the lower end of the starting scale.
    I guess it won't matter if I can put the bullet in a CNS shot consistantly at 200 to 300yds, but If I have to make a heart lung shot I'd like to know what to expect.

    Where do they publish recommended energy levels?

    Thanks!

    MOuntaintrekker

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    There aren't for Alaska to my knowledge. Some/most countries in Africa have minimums for dangerous game. Other than that I'm not aware of any. I wouldn't look at energy in a vaccum. You could hypotheticly get a 50 gr .22 bullet going fast enough to produce 5000 ft/lbs, but I doubt it would make a good brown bear gun. Look at mommentum values, muzzle energy, calibre, bullet weight, and bullet quality/performance. Looking at all those is a much better plan than blindly looking at muzzle energy.

    Brett

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    Good point Brett... thanks. Sometimes I get too caught up in the details.

    Mountaintrekker

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    "found a load that is so accurate it's scary, but it's on the lower end of the starting scale."

    Well then, you have all you need, unless your on the slow side of .22Hornet.

    Placement , Placement, Placement, the three rules to a clean kill.

    Now that accuracy on your part's not a factor, study up on animal anatomy to be 100%, if not all ready done
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Adam Barringer View Post
    There aren't for Alaska to my knowledge. Some/most countries in Africa have minimums for dangerous game. Other than that I'm not aware of any. I wouldn't look at energy in a vaccum. You could hypotheticly get a 50 gr .22 bullet going fast enough to produce 5000 ft/lbs, but I doubt it would make a good brown bear gun. Look at mommentum values, muzzle energy, calibre, bullet weight, and bullet quality/performance. Looking at all those is a much better plan than blindly looking at muzzle energy.

    Brett

    There is a minimum on bison, which includes both energy and bullet weight. It'll be tough to get a .22 that goes 200gr.
    "State regulations require that rifles and handguns must fire a 200-grain or larger bullet, which retains at least 2000 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards."

    There are additional weapon restrictions covering muzzleloading, archery and waterfowl, but those are additional topics.

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    It would be interesting to know that caliber and load which you are refering to.
    Also, a heart/lung shot often does not mean the bullet has to pass through bone, and if it does pass through bone it is normaly a rib bone, which is a "light" bone. On the other hand a CNS shot is going to have to penetrate spine or skull and those are "heavy" bone.

    So what kind of momentum is the bullet you want to use going to carry downrange ?

    A .243 Win has enough energy to kill a moose or bear at 200-300 yards provided the bullet is placed properly.

    How about some more info?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    There is a minimum on bison, which includes both energy and bullet weight. It'll be tough to get a .22 that goes 200gr.
    "State regulations require that rifles and handguns must fire a 200-grain or larger bullet, which retains at least 2000 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards."
    Hmmm.....I didn't know that. That's a good idea for an animal of that size. Thanks for the heads up!

    Brett

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    Here is what I'm using...
    Ruger M-77MKII 30.06 stainless with factory barrel. I'm using PMC brass, CCI 200, with a Sierra 200gr spitzer over 49.3grs IMR 4350. I'm seating the bullet by putting a loaded (with bullet inside the neck a bit) cartridge in the chamber then closing the bolt. I then take the round and put it in the seating die and turn the adj + 1/4 turn. I did this because my caliper got trashed in the move and I wanted to load.
    I have worked this load up the scale to 54grs and nothing even comes close. I'm putting a 5 shot string off of sandbags in MOA, or SUB MOA sometimes and getting pretty consistant chrony readings of 2300fps give or take a few as I'm using a beam scale.
    I have never shot this good with an .06 before, so I'm pretty j***ed for this upcoming season. To me this is scary accurate out of a factory gun of this type.
    Oh, the optics are a Leupold VXII 4-12 with fine duplex reticle.
    The ballistic calculator from Berger is saying if I'm zeroed at 200yds which I am, I can expect a drop of about 10" at 300yds which is about my limit persoanally for taking large game at this time.
    I should also add... this doesn't recoil much at all in this gun, more of a push which I think helps keep the shots tight.

    Just some info for ya all

    Mountaintrekker

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    I had a guide tell me once that if you were shooting a rifle (say .25 - .50cal), and where the bullet slowed down and offered around 2000pounds of energy, that was a good indication of how far your gun "should be" shooting at Alaskas bigger game. He said that the 2000# mark made big differences, especially when the shot might not have been perfect. Never tested the theory, but gives a guy a starting point if interested I suppose.

    Oh, of course, and most importantly, putting the bullet where it properly belongs really helps too.

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    Considering how much "big game" (including moose & the big bears) has fallen to cartridges such as: 30/30 win; 32 special win; 35 rem and a host of late 1800's lesser cartridges, the question is moot when using a "modern" chambering

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    Well, in Oregon, my dadio shot hundreds of deer with his 10/22 at 25-100 yards and dropped them all with one shot. a 22LR puts out around 85 Ft/lb of energy at 100 yards.

    I know moose guides that use 243's

    And 30-30 ( and 32 Win Spl, which is what I use for moose) used to be the go-to rifle for buffalo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Considering how much "big game" (including moose & the big bears) has fallen to cartridges such as: 30/30 win; 32 special win; 35 rem and a host of late 1800's lesser cartridges, the question is moot when using a "modern" chambering
    I would bet that the shots were much less than 300yds, let alone 200yds while utilizing those calibers. If shooting at a 150yds or less, there's no real reason why they wouldn't work. Good point though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    There is a minimum on bison, which includes both energy and bullet weight. It'll be tough to get a .22 that goes 200gr.
    "State regulations require that rifles and handguns must fire a 200-grain or larger bullet, which retains at least 2000 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards."

    There are additional weapon restrictions covering muzzleloading, archery and waterfowl, but those are additional topics.
    Milo: 200-grain or larger? That's an interesting statement. Got a link/reference handy? Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6XLeech View Post
    Milo: 200-grain or larger? That's an interesting statement. Got a link/reference handy? Thanks!
    That is correct, but I am having diffculty locating it via the new ADFG website. I have read that requirement many times over the years of applying for the Delta Bison Draw permit, I seem to recall it being stated in the Draw Permit Supplement. I discarded my copy of the supplement so I do not have it to reference. I will try to find a link if no-one beats me to it.

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    [QUOTE=FurFishGame;888407]Well, in Oregon, my dadio shot hundreds of deer with his 10/22 at 25-100 yards and dropped them all with one shot. a 22LR puts out around 85 Ft/lb of energy at 100 yards. QUOTE]

    I'm from Oregon as well, and can verify that yes, what your dad did/does happens all of the time. I've seen it and have done it, mainly on Blacktails. Deer are alot different than moose or big bears as I'm most certain that your aware of, and that's what the original question that this thread was regarding. If I remember correctly, in Alaska, you can't shoot moose or maybe it's all "big game" with a .22, not 100% positive. There's one exception I believe, and you can use a .22 on swimming caribou in certain game management units. Any input in correcting me if I'm way off base here is appreciated. Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 6XLeech View Post
    Milo: 200-grain or larger? That's an interesting statement. Got a link/reference handy? Thanks!
    I pulled it off my printout from orientation in 2003, but a google search turned up this page from ADF&G's "old site".
    http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index...abison.weapons

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    They also put it on the new site. Just gotta look, Enjoy.
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...abison.weapons

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    They also put it on the new site. Just gotta look, Enjoy.
    http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...abison.weapons
    Got it. Thanks, man.

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    In units 20 and 23 you can use it to take a caribou, and you can also shoot a swimming caribou in units 20 and 23

    I was only making a point about the 22 and the deer.

    I was in sportsmans a few days ago and a guy was telling these "chechakos" that they "need" a 300 winmag for bear, a 338 is better. That is a bunch of bull. and I told him that. if you can't kill any animal in alaska with a 30-06, you shouldn't be hunting. I'm not saying that the 300 and 338 are bad, heck, I wouldn't mind having one, but so many people now are saying that you "need" this and you "need" that for hunting. I know some rich folk who won't touch a "cheap" round, (like a remington Core-lokt) cause they fail. between my brother, me and my dad we have put down 5 moose and a few bears, all with one shot from 30-06 or less (me using a 32 win spl) dad shot his blackie with the 32 special also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaintrekker View Post
    Hello all,
    I've been wondering what "they" say are the minimums at various ranges for moose and bears etc. I'm reloading quite a bit and I found a load that is so accurate it's scary, but it's on the lower end of the starting scale.
    I guess it won't matter if I can put the bullet in a CNS shot consistantly at 200 to 300yds, but If I have to make a heart lung shot I'd like to know what to expect.

    Where do they publish recommended energy levels?

    Thanks!

    MOuntaintrekker
    150 grain bullet or better will kill anything in Alaska. The rest is just gravy.
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

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