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Thread: How a about a S&W X frame .44 Magnum?

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    Default How a about a S&W X frame .44 Magnum?

    I had my 629 Classic and .500 X frame out cleaning them tonight after the weekend shooting and the thought occurred to me: Why not a 6 shot S&W X-frame 44 Magnum? When everyone else is convering 6 shot revolvers to 5 shot larger bores this would be something different!

    With the X frame and 6 shot recessed cylinder you could really put some zip in the old .44 Mag. Have a 400 gr bullet mold made up and seat the bullet way out / long so the case could really hold some powder. Loaded to 65,000 psi or .460 S&W levels would put the .44 mag in whole new light. Sectional density should be up their with the .500 600 gr bullets and the load should shoot thru a bear or moose longwise even after shattering some bones along the way.

    Part of the fun would be publishing loads "For S&W X frames only - not for use in Rugers and other weaker guns". Smith owners could also talk down to Ruger owners about their Redhawks and Super Redhawks shooting loose and not holding up under the normal X frame loads. Of course the X frame is a little bit heavier than the SRHs but that shouldn't be an issue.

    Making the barrel shouldn't be too bad as the X frame uses a shrouded barrel. Not sure if a .500 cylinder could be sleeved for a 5 shot or a whole new cylinder would have to be made. N frame parts should work to convert it to a 6 shot if a new cylinder was made.

    Wonder what it would cost to pursue this pipe dream and who I get to do the work?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Could work.

    Remember the .357 Maximum? How about a 44 Maximum? You might even have an interchangeable cylinder for 444 Marlin? But to take full advantage of that, you would have to make the frame opening a bit larger. The "Y" frame? (Or maybe the "Why" frame.)

    Lost Sheep

    P.S. Of course, if all you want to do is upstage Ruger, you could chamber a 5-shot X-frame in 475 Linebaugh (which also takes the 480 Ruger).

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    Default Super .44 Magnum

    A .44 Maximum on the x frame could be interesting. The X frame cylinder is certainly long enough to handle an extended .44 round and should be able to generate some interesting velocities at the pressure level a X frame can handle. One great thing about the .44 caliber is the large variety of bullets avaliable in that diameter - the .452 isn't that blessed in the magnum catagory.

    A super .44 would also handle the .44 Mag and .44 Spl rounds for practice just like the .460 will digest the .454 and .45 LC.

    Wonder why S&W doesn't make this gun? Perhaps they fear it would cut into the .460 market.

    A .480 would also be an interesting caliber. It would certianly put a bump in the profits of the custom guys as it would sell for less than they charge for the conversions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post
    Could work.

    Remember the .357 Maximum? How about a 44 Maximum? You might even have an interchangeable cylinder for 444 Marlin? But to take full advantage of that, you would have to make the frame opening a bit larger. The "Y" frame? (Or maybe the "Why" frame.)

    Lost Sheep

    P.S. Of course, if all you want to do is upstage Ruger, you could chamber a 5-shot X-frame in 475 Linebaugh (which also takes the 480 Ruger).
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    The 44 Super mag was designed be Elgin Gates and is a longer 44 case of about 1.6". I believe at one time Dan Wesson made revolvers for this round

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    Something sticks in the back of my mine about something like that - seems like it was called the .445 or such. I need to do some research.

    I figure the xframe could handle a very long round and very high pressure - much higher pressures than the Dan Wesson. Maybe even beat out the .444 Marlin out of a pistol.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwp500 View Post
    The 44 Super mag was designed be Elgin Gates and is a longer 44 case of about 1.6". I believe at one time Dan Wesson made revolvers for this round
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    I donít see what you would gain over 460. They designed the 460 to take advantage of the cylinder length and they come to the very end in some loadings. You might match 460 velocities (200g@2200fps) but I think youíd need a lighter bullet to get 2200fps and why would you want to do that? Elmer only hotroded the 44 because the guns of the day wouldnít let him hotrod the 45, X-frame lets you hotrod the heck out of 45. 460 is rated for 65Kpsi, X-frame is rated 65Kpsi, how much are we gonna get from a .429 of the same length at 65Kpsi? I can see maybe taking a 500 case and necking it down to .429 to see if you can get way on out there . . . but my 460 is already dead nuts at 200 yards. What am I missing boys? I love to tinker as much as anyone but I see no up-side.
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    Gentlemen:
    I would think that there is a limit to how powerful a round you can use in a revolver.

    No matter how Beeg and Beefy the gun is,
    because of the gap between the cylinder, and the barrel,
    at some point in the amount of pressure,
    wouldn't there be too much gas cutting like with the 357 Maximum?

    Thanks
    Smitty of the North
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    There are limits to everything but I think what is more relevant is the diminishing returns as the limits are approached. Some of the early 460s had cutting issues and Smith fixed it by reducing cylinder gap. Some of the ultra light guns have a shield to stop cutting and IĎm sure there are other ways to get around the problem.

    My problem here is why do we want to reduce the diameter, what is it that we gain making our X-frame 429-S&Wmag? The only advantage I can see is improved SD with lighter bullets if we are looking to reach way on out there with a hand cannon. Hence my suggestion of a necked down 500 case allowing more capacity that could be used with a longer barrel to gain range.

    Even then I donít see it being practical when my 460 can hold about 7Ē gropes at 200 yards scoped off a bench. So to me Iíve reached into the diminishing returns with the 460 already because, being a handgun it needs the scope, bench, bags and . . . so to reach out more why not just pick up a rifle that will do 200 yards and more offhand without any extras. IĎm the kind of guy that would do something just because but I donít see any because, or gain in usefulness other than a long range paper punch . . . but even then what about all the Contender type guns itíd be competing with.
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    Sometimes the answer to a nonexisting problem is "because I want to". If that is good enough reason for you to spend a bunch of money on a project that I think is silly, well, it is your money and if it makes you feel good then do it. To me, when a handgun gets big enough and heavy enough, I will go to a rifle. I have a Puma in 454 Casull. It launches a 320gr at about 2000fps and although a little longer it isn't much heavier at under 6 lbs. Or how about a "Mares Leg" in 454. There's all kinds of neat ideas floating around which is how we got all the neat stuff we have today. Some of them make sense to a lot of people, the WWG Marlin is one, and some don't. Does anyone remember the pistol that shot jet propelled bullets. But, if the idea makes sense to you, you really should have one made and report results. I will be looking forward to an article expounding on the virtues of the 44X frame and how it is much better than Y or Z.

  10. #10

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    One of the finest de-calibered revolvers I've ever handled is the Freedom Arms model 83 in .22 rimfire.
    The S&W x-frame would be an absolute hoot if it were available in a .22 especially if the street price would be below
    a model 41.
    If S&W were to build it, in my minds eye I could see it offered with a switch barrel/cylinder set up like the
    Dan Wessons of old (I know it would get really expensive really quickly, but a boy can dream). Imagine .22 through
    .500 all on one frame.
    Although that .500 bore could accept a Briley style barrel insert and the cylinder could house .22
    cartridge adapters - that may be a much cheaper alternative to purchasing an entirely new purpose built gun.

    Just a plinker's .02c

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    The .44 Maximum concept has kinda already been done, at least in a single action revolver:
    it's called the Magnum Research BFR in .444 Marlin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    There are limits to everything but I think what is more relevant is the diminishing returns as the limits are approached. Some of the early 460s had cutting issues and Smith fixed it by reducing cylinder gap. Some of the ultra light guns have a shield to stop cutting and IĎm sure there are other ways to get around the problem.

    My problem here is why do we want to reduce the diameter, what is it that we gain making our X-frame 429-S&Wmag? The only advantage I can see is improved SD with lighter bullets if we are looking to reach way on out there with a hand cannon. Hence my suggestion of a necked down 500 case allowing more capacity that could be used with a longer barrel to gain range.

    Even then I donít see it being practical when my 460 can hold about 7Ē gropes at 200 yards scoped off a bench. So to me Iíve reached into the diminishing returns with the 460 already because, being a handgun it needs the scope, bench, bags and . . . so to reach out more why not just pick up a rifle that will do 200 yards and more offhand without any extras. IĎm the kind of guy that would do something just because but I donít see any because, or gain in usefulness other than a long range paper punch . . . but even then what about all the Contender type guns itíd be competing with.
    I see your point about the 460, even though I don't know beans about these beeg bore hand canons.

    As to necking down the 500, isn't it true, that bottle-neck cases don't work well, in a revolver, because they like to back out of the cylinder on firing?

    It seems to me, that there are other limiting factors to how powerful a cartridge you can successfully use in a revolver, but when you have these guys who don't care if they lose their hearing, and don't mind bloody hands and fingers, it doesn't limit them at all.

    However, when the top strap of their gun starts cuttin in two, I'm thinkin THAT will cause them to reassess, how far they CAN go.

    Smitty of the North
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    Yea I donít know how well it would work but t could be fun to play with. Bottleneck revolvers have been done, 44-40 and the BFR 30-30 come to mind but Iím sure there would be issues. Also donít see the point other than to see what it was like and be able to say, I have a . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADfields View Post
    Yea I donít know how well it would work but t could be fun to play with. Bottleneck revolvers have been done, 44-40 and the BFR 30-30 come to mind but Iím sure there would be issues. Also donít see the point other than to see what it was like and be able to say, I have a . . .
    Yeah, I gave up hope of ever having a DA revolver with a 2 inch barrel, chambered in 7mm Weatherby Magnum, a long time ago.

    It's too bad, though, because that would allow me to use the same ammo in both my rifle and my handgun.

    Smitty of the North
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    I agree as far as getting a new caliber and in a new or modified frame. L do like factory guns but a custom made in an odd caliber just calls to me. I search alot about wildcat cartridges so I'm sure with the money and know how you could come up with a pretty nice Hawg leg revolver like a 44-500 or how about a 45-70 short or something along those lines.

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    Saw a video of a guy that shot a TC in what I think was either 460Whby os 600 Nitro. The main problem there was trying to get off a second shot as he had to go find the gun all the while surrering from blunt force trauma on his head. He sure had bragging rights though. My guns bigger than your gun.

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    A .45/500 would be the easiest to make - "just" ream out the .460 cylinder. A longer case would be nice however as the .500 case is actually shorter than it needs to be for the cylinder. Cut down .500 Nitro cases could be possibility or maybe shortened .348 cases. With a fairly sharp shoulder set back shouldn't be an issue like it was with the .22 Jet. In the shadow of the .450 Alaskan be could come up with a neat name - perhaps the .45 or .460 Alaskan?

    Ballistically the .460 Alaskan should really send a heavy .45 caliber bullet zinging - the .S&W .460 does a good job with standard light .452 bullets. It would require a new barrel but if the bore was increased to .457 a wide variety of .45-70 bullets would become avaliable.

    If you got another cylinder and kept the standard bore diameter you could still shoot the standard .460 loads to plink with- kinda like shooting .45 LCs in a .454.

    Wonder what this project would cost?

    Quote Originally Posted by YotaTRD4x4 View Post
    I agree as far as getting a new caliber and in a new or modified frame. L do like factory guns but a custom made in an odd caliber just calls to me. I search alot about wildcat cartridges so I'm sure with the money and know how you could come up with a pretty nice Hawg leg revolver like a 44-500 or how about a 45-70 short or something along those lines.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Saw a video of a guy that shot a TC in what I think was either 460Whby os 600 Nitro. The main problem there was trying to get off a second shot as he had to go find the gun all the while surrering from blunt force trauma on his head. He sure had bragging rights though. My guns bigger than your gun.
    That's not funny rbuck.

    It's REELY funny.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

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    Some times ya gotta wonder just how far people will go with the " My guns bigger than yours" but in this case they made a video for youtube or some such and showed how far you shouldn't go.

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    Tvfinak,
    You just may have something I wonder if you could take a 460 X frame have a 5 shot cylinder made with say a 500s&w necked down to 452. You could always get cast bullets in 458 and size them down to 452 I size down a 300gr Lyman 457191 to use in my 454. I would say a case full of powder would make a nasty 45 Alaskan. I have no idea of the cost but a 400gr or maybe 450gr hardcast would run long ways thru about anything I would bet

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