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Thread: 458 x 1.5

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    Default 458 x 1.5

    I am looking for any info I can get my hands on regarding 458 X 1.5 cartridge and potential loads. I have found a fair amount for the 458 X 2, but the shorter cartridge seems to have been more of a one-off kind of experiment with very few followers. and it seems that most, if not all the loads were based around 300 grain bullets intended for metalic Silhouette shooting.

    I would be particularly interested in load data for commonly available bullets weighing 500 grains or more, at velocities in the 1000 fps range.

    I would also be interested to hear your opinions on what would constitue a good repeating bolt rifle to use as a basis for this round. I am thinking short action Rem Model 7 chambered in 350 Rem Mag would be perfect and only require a barrel change and some minor inletting...
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alangaq View Post
    I am looking for any info I can get my hands on regarding 458 X 1.5 cartridge and potential loads. I have found a fair amount for the 458 X 2, but the shorter cartridge seems to have been more of a one-off kind of experiment with very few followers. and it seems that most, if not all the loads were based around 300 grain bullets intended for metalic Silhouette shooting.

    I would be particularly interested in load data for commonly available bullets weighing 500 grains or more, at velocities in the 1000 fps range.

    I would also be interested to hear your opinions on what would constitue a good repeating bolt rifle to use as a basis for this round. I am thinking short action Rem Model 7 chambered in 350 Rem Mag would be perfect and only require a barrel change and some minor inletting...
    I can't help you with any info but have to say that sounds like a fun project. I always wanted a 450 Marlin in a bolt gun and even talked to one of the Ruger techs concerning and he said they were considering it. Well that was 3 years ago so my guess is it aint gonna happen.

    The 500 grainer would be a great Silhouette thumper!

  3. #3

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    I owned a 458 2-inch (or as we called it 458 American) back in the 1970's and developed loads for a friend's 458 RCBS (2.75") in the same era. Good rounds both, and flawless function in bolts. I have no experience with the 1.5" but my instinct is that it should function fine as you envision using it, if it gives you the ballistics you want. I worked mostly with 350 grain bullets, and it never occurred to me to try 500's. Let us know what you turn out.

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    A 458 Whisper sounds neat.

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    So, I am reluctant to put this out there, not because it’s any kind of secret or awesome new idea, but mostly because I seriously doubt that I can follow this theoretical concept all the way thru to a viable reality….but maybe…just maybe…
    Ok, so perhaps you guys have heard of SRT Arms http://www.srtarms.com/ these guys have been installing integral suppressors on Ruger 77/44 bolt action rifles using a 10 inch 1 in 11 twist Douglass barrel that will accurately stabilize a 300 grain bullet at subsonic velocities, and accuracy is reportedly quite good. I called the; what turned out to be, very nice and patient (also knowledgeable) staff there at SRT and was suitably impressed. This in turn got me to thinking…. 1. I am not a huge fan of Ruger bolt guns. Don’t hate them or anything like that, but just prefer a Winchester or Remington. 2. I am not a huge fan of the .44 Mag. Again, I don’t hate them or anything, but just don’t have any strong affection or draw to own another one. 3. Wouldn’t a heaver bullet make this theoretical rifle more viable as a very short range hunting gun? Perhaps black bears from a tree stand, or even moose if you could call them in close enough? 500 grains at a subsonic velocity near 1000 fps would still be quite potent out to nearly 100 yards if you had really good range estimating skills. On par with several 500 S&W loads if I am not mistaken? Recoil from a full size bolt gun should be moderate to mild given my experience with similar loads from the 45/70.
    All this theoretical thinking lead me to the 458 X 1.5 which, in my mind at least, should be able to drive a 500+ grain bullet to 1000 fps out of a 10 inch barrel quite efficiently using certain, as yet to be defined powders. And all that, subsonic, suppressed, and comparatively quiet!
    Correct me if I am thinking wrong here… but the 458 X 2 seems to be more than required as far as case capacity will be concerned, and I am thinking that the 458 X 1.5 will work quite well from a model 7 Remington, which is a rifle that I really, really like… and if I find one already chambered for 350 Rem Mag, then I would need not do any work to the bolt.
    I have found some interesting history on this very round, and it seems as though it was used in suppressed rifles with some success back in the Vietnam area. However range estimation was found to be very critical due to the rainbow like trajectory…. Modern rounds like the Whisper series of cartridges are interesting for long range work, however I wish to avoid the trouble of using very long, low drag projectiles as they are not required for the kind of short range work I have envisioned for this rifle.
    Obviously , and as always, your candid input would be more than welcome!
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Alangaq,

    Give Dave Fricke at Lehigh Bullets a call. You can do a google search to get his website. He is a friend of a friend (I've metand hunted with him a few times, great guy), and is heavily into big bores and subsonic suppressors. He manufactures both bullets and supressors. He and my buddy at Cross Outdoors developed the .50 TAC whis is a short .510 caliber round that they do quite a bit of sub-sonic stuff with. They have messed with some .458 caliber rounds as well so he might have some insight for you. He knows JD Jones well and is familiar with all of his work as well. The website is mainly for long range stuff, but he is familiar with what you are wanting to do as well.

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    I have been thinking of something similar for a while only using a Contender in 45Colt with 16 in barrel 300/350gr cast bullets and a supressor. Should be very effective to 100yds or so and wouldn't upset the nieghbors.

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    The closest thing I've read about was a .458X1.4" Ross Seyfried has this built as a revolver round, to use 45-70 bullets out of a 5 shot single action. That was before there were good options for heavy bullet molds and component bullets in .451".

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    The original 458x1.5 was developed and loaded by Fred Barnes of Barnes bullet fame. It was designed for and used by the US Military for covert ops. It was fired out of a supressed rifle and one shot usually solved the problem. At the end of the Viet Nam war most of this ammo was destroyed by the ordinance dept. Original samples of these rounds demand premiums by ammunition collectors. If you have an extra I'm interested in one; PM me.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

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    While I'm not near my gun library at this time; I believe you'll find your loading data on this cartridge in "Cartridges Of the World", by Fred Barnes. If my memory serves me correctly it is in the #9 edition, under Wildcat and Proprietary Cartridges.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

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    I remember at one time in "Cartridges of the World" there was a 458x2. I think I still have that book with the load data given for same. If anyone wants to pm me I'll go look for the book and verify and send you the a copy of the actual page.

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    Thanks for all the input guys! I am still on the fence and havent decided what I am eventually going to build... Over the last couple of weeks I have talked with a bunch of different suppressor manufactures and am now more confused than ever! Ha! the one guy that really seemed interested in building a rifle was JD Jones of SSK, although he has some serious heart burn with Remington rifles (I dont get that but oh well...) and seems to really love the CZ-527's. He got me thinking smaller... much smaller, as in a suppressed 6.5 based off of the 221 fireball case, called the 6.5 Whisper. From a cost standpoint this may be far more atainable for me that some custom one off .458 suppressed rifle.

    Once I make a decision I will open another topic to cover the rifle buid.
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    A buddy of mine is a 6.5 nut and has the Whisper in his spread. And he raves about it. Coming from him, that's high praise, because he really knows his stuff.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    If you're looking at the smaller bore whispers, I'd highly consider the 300. Still enough bullet weight to be interesting, and 30 cal cans are fairly common. You can also get 300 whisper AR uppers that are reasonably priced, and reloading dies are aren't that hard to come by.

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    If you are going to use this for hunting bear, moose and such the bigger heavier bullets at 1000fps will give much better knock down than the small dia bullets. The 458x1.5 would be a very good choice. If you had a gun in the 308 size bolt face you could use shortened 308 cases ( maybe 1 3/4") reamed inside to .416 or .429 and headspace off case mouth. A 400gr .416 at 1000/1100fps should kill very well. A custom set of dies and a rebarrel probably won't cost as much as the suppressor. It would also make a pretty good cast bullet gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    A buddy of mine is a 6.5 nut and has the Whisper in his spread. And he raves about it. Coming from him, that's high praise, because he really knows his stuff.
    That is good to know!
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    If you're looking at the smaller bore whispers, I'd highly consider the 300. Still enough bullet weight to be interesting, and 30 cal cans are fairly common. You can also get 300 whisper AR uppers that are reasonably priced, and reloading dies are aren't that hard to come by.
    Thought about the 300 Whisper, but I am really looking for something that shoots a very common and easy to obtain bullet. All the heavy VLD .30 cal bullets always seem to be on backorder and are never available locally... 500 gr .458 bullets are everywere, as are 140 gr 6.5 bullets.

    you have a very good point about cans... .223 & .308 cans are far and away the most redily available and common. Dies and other associated gear for the 6.5 Whisper is likely to set me back some serious cash... oh well
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    If you are going to use this for hunting bear, moose and such the bigger heavier bullets at 1000fps will give much better knock down than the small dia bullets. The 458x1.5 would be a very good choice. If you had a gun in the 308 size bolt face you could use shortened 308 cases ( maybe 1 3/4") reamed inside to .416 or .429 and headspace off case mouth. A 400gr .416 at 1000/1100fps should kill very well. A custom set of dies and a rebarrel probably won't cost as much as the suppressor. It would also make a pretty good cast bullet gun.
    yeah, if I go with the 6.5, it wont be enough gun for anything other than varnmints and plinking... I suppose you could take a black bear from a tree stand with it... but at 10 feet you could probably kill a black bear with just about anything sharp and pointy....

    Lots to think about still....
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    I'm am very intrested in results from a lg cal subsonic suppressed hunting gun. Please post results with what ever you go with. Thanks Buck

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    I set up a NEF 44 Mag cut to 20" barrel with a 45 ACP can shooting 290 gr wheelweight (because that's the mold I have) Keith style bullets at around 1000 fps using Trailboss. It drops about 4" at 100 yds from a 25 yrd zero. It is almost movie quiet and has taken 7 deer under 50 yds on crop damage permits. It is a GREAT set up and very cheap to build and shoot.

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