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Thread: Cannelured bullets vs. non

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    Default Cannelured bullets vs. non

    I have a question I have never found the need for an answer to ... until now - Will a cannelured bullet "fly" differently than a bullet without a cannelure ? I just bought some Nosler seconds and they have cannelures so I am wondering if I will need to change my handload to accomodate them ? these bullets are 150/.30 ballistic tips

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    Quote Originally Posted by back country View Post
    I have a question I have never found the need for an answer to ... until now - Will a cannelured bullet "fly" differently than a bullet without a cannelure ? I just bought some Nosler seconds and they have cannelures so I am wondering if I will need to change my handload to accomodate them ? these bullets are 150/.30 ballistic tips
    I've not done an exhaustive study on this, but external differences should create different drag factors if all else remains equal. How much, I can't say. I can say that I've shot the same bullets with and without cannelure for many years and have been unable to note external ballistic differences (including accuracy) between the two. I surmised this was due to the precision of my equipment, i.e. hunting rifles. Regardless, the variation in a real world setting is likely to be small--at hunting ranges and with hunting rifles I'd expect the differences to be insignificant. The proof is in the pudding--so give us a report on your results.

    So far as load info--I'd treat them like I would any different lot number of bullets. Take some measurements, make some comparisons and load away...
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    I can't prove it, but I doubt if there will be any real world difference unless you have some very good bench rest equiptment and even then maybe not.

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    As to the Difference.
    Take it from Me, and I'm here to tell ya.

    I can give you a defnite, "probably not".

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    Good answer Smitty. I think you are 100% exactly right on almost.

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    I've shot 250 gr. Nosler Partitions in my .338 Win Mag for years so I had a fairly good supply on hand. Last year I used the last of them and they were cannelured bullets so when I bought new bullets I was surprised they didn't have the familiar cannelure. I was a little worried so loaded up the same load with the new bullets. I was relieved to find at the range that there was no difference in accuracy or POI. The new bullets are now in my pack and ready to go.

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    For the 30 years before a "friend" walked off with my cannelure tool I used to add cannelures any time I needed them. Initial groups while testing loads would be single fed into the gun and not cannelured. Once I added the cannelure and crimped the bullet, I'd shoot a final group or two for sight in and function of hunting loads. I can't recall ever seeing a change, which is really surprising when you consider that I'm adding a crimp to the mix that wasn't there during load testing. I know that theory sezz it isn't "supposed to" happen that way, but I have never seen the addition of a crimp to cause changes in group size or POI. I also don't see changes when both are fired with no crimp. That makes me certain bench rest rules don't always have to be applied to assembling hunting loads.

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    I don't know about cannelures changing ballistics, but I have some Hornady 170gr flat-points designed for 30-30, and the cannelures are so deeply embossed that I worry the jacket will separate and tear at the cannelure upon expansion in game. (IE: encourage bullet fragmentation)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall/Ak View Post
    I don't know about cannelures changing ballistics, but I have some Hornady 170gr flat-points designed for 30-30, and the cannelures are so deeply embossed that I worry the jacket will separate and tear at the cannelure upon expansion in game. (IE: encourage bullet fragmentation)

    Marshall/Ak
    That's a serious question and consideration. Back in the 60's and 70's when more folks did for themselves and even made their own jacketed bullets, there was quite a bit of study of that question. In fact a minor "cottage industry" developed around the answer. Square-sided cannelures, even fairly shallow ones will result in jacket tearing. From that folks started rounding the edges of the wheel on their cannelure tools to produce a cannelure with rounded edges. That not only stopped the jacket tearing, with fairly heavy cannelures it even resulted in some measure of "controlled" expansion behind the cannelure.

    I'd look close at the cannelures, and if they're square, you've got reasons to worry. If they're rounded, I'd think it was a plus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall/Ak View Post
    I don't know about cannelures changing ballistics, but I have some Hornady 170gr flat-points designed for 30-30, and the cannelures are so deeply embossed that I worry the jacket will separate and tear at the cannelure upon expansion in game. (IE: encourage bullet fragmentation)

    Marshall/Ak
    FWIW, I've never suffered from "too much" expansion or anything I would call bullet failure with Hornady's 170 grain bullet in the 30/30. I've loaded those for more many, many years and numerous whitetails have succumbed to that combination by various hunters of my handloads (family and friends). It's a deadly combination and hard to improve upon IMO given the 30/30's many constraints.
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    thank you guys ! I didn't figure that Nosler would sell one or the other without a disclaimer but with all the fuss "we" go to for groups it struck me that there might be a change in flight characteristics but I think it was merely my shooting that was suspect

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    For the 30 years before a "friend" walked off with my cannelure tool I used to add cannelures any time I needed them. Initial groups while testing loads would be single fed into the gun and not cannelured. Once I added the cannelure and crimped the bullet, I'd shoot a final group or two for sight in and function of hunting loads. I can't recall ever seeing a change, which is really surprising when you consider that I'm adding a crimp to the mix that wasn't there during load testing. I know that theory sezz it isn't "supposed to" happen that way, but I have never seen the addition of a crimp to cause changes in group size or POI. I also don't see changes when both are fired with no crimp. That makes me certain bench rest rules don't always have to be applied to assembling hunting loads.
    Yeah, it isn't spose to be like that, BB:

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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor15:19 View Post
    FWIW, I've never suffered from "too much" expansion or anything I would call bullet failure with Hornady's 170 grain bullet in the 30/30. I've loaded those for more many, many years and numerous whitetails have succumbed to that combination by various hunters of my handloads (family and friends). It's a deadly combination and hard to improve upon IMO given the 30/30's many constraints.
    That's really useful feedback, especially with the years of game performance. I've only shot that bullet a little (I always used the Remington instead) and never on game. Your results make sense when the slower velocities are factored in. There might be issues in an 06, but that's not what they were built for. I can tell you for sure that the Remington version turns into a bomb on flesh when launched full speed from an 06. (Don't ask how I know!)

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    This is a little bit beyond the original question, but here is an interesting link:

    http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/am...and-solutions/

    What I was looking for was the part that shows a bullet coming apart at the cannelure. I tried to find the link that shows the accuracy results of someone who damaged the tips of bullets, but couldn't find it.

    Bottom line, a bullet "can" come apart at the cannelure, and modifications to the jacket (cannelure, tip deformation, etc) "can" affect accuracy. However, from what I've read, a bullet is unlikely to come apart at the cannelure at "normal" velocities, which would vary according to bullet construction. In the first link, it was a 5.56 fmj and one of the problems that is happening with that round is that it ISN'T fragmenting when fired from a M4 carbine at longer (therefore, slower velocities) ranges. Most challenges to bullet construction I've found were at close ranges (25-50 yards) and high velocities. Nosler ballistic tips and Remington corelocks came apart like a grenade out of my 30-06 when hitting deer. Most of the manufacturers have addressed those problems by thickening the jackets.

    As far as accuracy, from everything I've read and experienced, at "normal" hunting ranges (100-200 yards), bullet deformations are surprisingly not a huge factor in accuracy. I would guess bullet jacket uniformity, chamber throating, barrel quality, muzzle crown condition, and cartridge loading consistency would be the major factors affecting accuracy. At longer ranges, the bullet condition has a greater affect on ballistic flight. In fact there is a tool that uniforms the "meplat" of the bullet in order to reduce vertical stringing (600 yards and beyond.

    Bottom line, the cannelure on your box of BTs probably won't affect your load in any way that you will notice. Load them up and fire some groups. Let us know.

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    My questions originate from handloads for my 308 with 150 grain bullets so hyper velocity isn't an issue and I will have to shoot some more to see what has changed if the bullets are not the culprit

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    You might run those seconds across a scale, because lots will depend on why they are seconds, how they were discovered to be seconds, and especially how Nosler went about doing something about it.

    I've never shot Nosler seconds, but used to buy Sierra seconds by the 10 pound bag back in the 1960's. And I'm here to tell you, there are lots of 50 or 52 grain bullets in a 10-pound bag! (As in roughly 1400!) Considering we were only paying $1 a pound if I recall correctly, we had lots of reason to figure out which bullets had problems.

    Investigation revealed that Sierra techs would spot check bullets off the line, weighing them for tollerances. If one was out, they'd knock the ten in front and then ten behind off the belt, then weigh some off the belt again. As you might guess, that resulted in a whole, whole lot of bullets with no problems, and all you had to do was sort out the bad ones.

    If there was an average, we found that something like 90% of the bullets were perfect. Dump the other 10% or use them to blow up rocks, and you could win matches with the rest. Been there, done that, as a matter of fact. It took a long time to weigh 1400 or more bullets in the days before electronic scales, but we had more time than money back then anyway.

    I'd run all your seconds across a scale, get rid of the ones that are out of spec, then try your groups again with the rest. Unless Nosler is a lot better at culling with modern machinery and sensing, you probably have a bunch of perfect bullets with a few stinkers mixed in. Get rid of the stinkers, and you should be in business.

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    I've never worried about cannelured bullets. If they were a problem, they wouldn't use them in Factory Loads.

    I don't use many Factory Loads, but every one I've seen was loaded with a cannelured bullet. (Sometimes you gotta look close to see it.)

    The same bullet made for a handloading componet, won't have a cannelure, unless, it's part of the design for terminal performance. Hornady Interlocks, for example.

    Any bullet can come apart if you spin it too fast, and for other reasons too.

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    that is a good point about the "seconds" - Nosler states that there is nothing "functionally" wrong with their 2nds but it would be a bad idea to check some for weight just to keep them "honest"

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