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Thread: Cost sharing with your halibut buddy is compensation...maybe...but not sure....

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    Member AK Ray's Avatar
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    Default Cost sharing with your halibut buddy is compensation...maybe...but not sure....

    Holy Cow! this is about the stupidest thing ever, read it here

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    No kidding!

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Should be interesting to see if they will be "Carding" my kids this summer
    "Those aren't the neighbor kids are they, or you're Busted ??"

    Don't have a CHP, but it shouldn't be long til they are wondering whose kids those are, on everyone's boat.
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Member captaindd's Avatar
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    Just wait to they do an interview with your kids. Did you catch those big halibut or did your daddy reel them in for you. Or how many fish did you catch? I always like it when these guys at the cleaning table are talking and one asks how much should we tip the captain? When is the last time you tipped one of your friends? It is going to get better. Valdez is going to have cammera's installed in the small boat harbor I wonder who will be watching us?

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    Member Dupont Spinner's Avatar
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    I never seem to get to fish with anybody that wants to help fuel my boat or buy beer or buy lunch, but I always collect some nice tips for filleting my buddies fish(of course that is after we have returned to the city docks).

    All depends on how you split that banana.....

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    This article is typical of why we cannot have good discourse on a subject. It starts off with a flame and then goes on to say that it will be up to the officers to enforce - duh. The State has the same regulations on the books so it is funny that the biologist did not know that. The whole purpose of the regulation is to catch illegal guides who do not have valid papers - whether federal or state. On the Kenai illegal guides claim all the people in the boat are friends and they are just buying gas, food, and whatever. This regulation lets the enforcement officer and courts decide if the operation is a guiding operation or not. Without it there would be no way to enforce guide limitation regulations or requirements for training. So this is a good regulation and the average honest fisherman who fishes with his buddies and pays for some gas really has nothing to worry about.

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    Member AKBighorn's Avatar
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    Please define valid papers.

    The way I see it a guides boat intended purpose is to be used to generate income. Either the law should state that is its sole purpose not to be used in any other way or they should not worry about a guide sacrificing a day of income to fish with family or friends.

    On the Kenia I assume your referring to a day guides are not allowed to work. If there is such a problem with that then simply change the rule for that fishery rather than spoil the whole penninsula.

    Maybe I'm missing something here but from what I read it sounds retarded. I hope your right this will in no way impact the average joe that splits (with no intention of making profit) the cost of a fishing trip with a friend, not that it would be easy for them to enforce anyway.

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    Valid papers means showing you have attended the training classes, have a valid Coast Guard license, have the correct title and certification for the vessels used, and any other certifications or papers required for the fishery one participates in.

    You are correct that a guide's purpose is to generate income. However, income does not mean just money. Services are a form of income. If I trade some work on a person's house for a fishing trip that is technically income. Again, the purpose of this is to define what is legal and what is not relative to generation of income from all sources, not just the transfer of paper money.

    On the Kenai guides do not give up a day of income to fish with family or friends. They do it on Sunday when guiding is prohibited. So how does enforcement know which people in the boat are friends who are sharing in the cost of gas only or what other income has changed hands? They do it by starting with the idea that no income should be exchanged and that allows an investigation to proceed. If the rule was not there then there would be no option for enforcement.

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    Member AKBighorn's Avatar
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    Still seems like there is more to the story than has been stated so far.

    A guide on the Kenia is going to have to pay $40-50k for a permit to allow them to take friends or family fishing on that river? Would it matter if they just bought another boat for personal use for much less and use it on thier off days? Or is by purchasing this permit supposed to keep them honest and not break the law? I realize the boat isn't the issue but what truely is? How are they going to enforce this if there isn't a sticker on the side of the boat that says hey I'm a guide. I'm just trying to understand but its not making sense yet.

    So I help a friend build a house and we have a gentlemans agreement that he is going to help me build mine because we are friends and friends help friends. In the end there was no monetary exchange but we both recieved services where if done using a business license is taxable income. Since we are friends or family shall we be required to purchase a permit to make it legal for us to do this and not pay taxes?

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    AK - guides on the Kenai can fish on Sunday with family and friends - that is not the issue. The issue is illegal guides who book a 7 day trip with a group and then because Sunday is a no guide day they all become friends or there is a person who takes people fishing for cost of fuel and boat rental but calls them friends to avoid the law. This is about illegal guiding not legally registered guides who are out fishing with their families. Also, a person who is a guide in other parts of the state but not registered to guide on the Kenai can come and fish with family and friends anytime they want, except on closed days to all anglers. However, if a guide from out of the area decides to take clients under the cover of them being friends then the law will allow a violation notice to be written.

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    To clarify, guides on the Kenai cannot fish, under any circumstances from a registered guide boat on Sunday's or Mondays, if they fish on those days it must be from a non-guide registered boat.

    On the halibut issue, my issue is that I cannot use my kenai guide boat to go out fishing with my family for halibut. They are making a criminal out of me before I drop the boat in the water. I have no intention of guiding on the salt, never have, don't want to, but 1 to 2 times a year I enjoy halibut fishing out of Anchor Point, heck, acutally I didn't even do it last year as each time I wanted to go the weather was poor. But for me to not be able to go out and fish halibut out of my kenai guide boat is just wrong.

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    If the state is serious about pushing back against federal oversight, they can resist federal control by refusing to enforce federal regulation. ALL federal regulation. The state currently uses its wildlife troopers and state parks rangers to enforce Coast Guard regulation. This practice could stop.

    If the state is enforcing a federal law because it is tied to Alaska state regulations or management plan, then it would be easy to write a duplicate State regulation and enforce that. The state currently devotes a lot of limited trooper hours to checking boats for life vests and flares, which could be spent actually discovering game and fish violations, instead.

    I think this would send a strong message to the feds, and also require the feds to hire more personnel, open up more LEO offices in this state (which would bring revenue to the state), and buy more equipment to enforce their regulations. It doesn't send much of a message for us to tell them "we don't like the regulations, but we'll enforce them for you anyway," does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerka View Post
    Valid papers means showing you have attended the training classes, have a valid Coast Guard license, have the correct title and certification for the vessels used, and any other certifications or papers required for the fishery one participates in.

    You are correct that a guide's purpose is to generate income. However, income does not mean just money. Services are a form of income. If I trade some work on a person's house for a fishing trip that is technically income. Again, the purpose of this is to define what is legal and what is not relative to generation of income from all sources, not just the transfer of paper money.

    On the Kenai guides do not give up a day of income to fish with family or friends. They do it on Sunday when guiding is prohibited. So how does enforcement know which people in the boat are friends who are sharing in the cost of gas only or what other income has changed hands? They do it by starting with the idea that no income should be exchanged and that allows an investigation to proceed. If the rule was not there then there would be no option for enforcement.
    Nerka, you failed to mention the "non-guides" that are out there every day with different people in their boats. I see it all the time, I turn them in when I can and have even attempted to do a "sting" on them as there is a $5000 reward for turning them in and getting a conviction. The hard part is getting a conviction. I have heard of a guys that are not registered guides that "troll" the campgrounds and Fred Meyer's parking lots looking for "clients". It is a tough one for the law enforcement to catch. Heck, there is a guy that goes out of Eagle Rock at about 5am that has different people everyday, one day his group can down asking if anyone knew where his guide was, no one had heard of the guy then the illegal guy pulled up and picked up his group. We tried to bust him as well as the State, but he wasn't directly taking money and the "clients" were donating money to his wife's charity. It was obvious to all what he was doing but the troopers didn't have enough to charge.

    There are also many "sponsored" boats that are out there that are not guides but are taking their really good clients out on fishing trips. There isn't money exchanged but the intent and business connection is there. It is a gray area, and again, tough to prove.

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    "If the state is serious about pushing back against federal oversight, they can resist federal control by refusing to enforce federal regulation. ALL federal regulation. The state currently uses its wildlife troopers and state parks rangers to enforce Coast Guard regulation. This practice could stop."
    Be careful what you wish for. CA did exactly this and refuses to enforce USCG regulations. Now unlicensed guides using power boats are rampant in the state and are causing accidents and fatalities in non-USCG patrolled waters. In fact, there was another fatality over the weekend. While some may protest (fairly) against some stupid Fed regulations, not all of them are bad.

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    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    Medred stirring the pot... First its unenforcable second if it leads to less illegal guiding thats great
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Quote from article: "So if you're one of 400 or so Kenai River sport fishing guides, and you want to take friends or visiting Aunt Lucy out halibut fishing in Cook Inlet on Sundays or Mondays during the king salmon season, when the Kenai is closed to guides, you could buy a $40,000 to $50,000 permit."

    Why would this be necessary if they aren't fishing the Kenai? What good does it do to penalize registered guides if that isn't where the issue is? If the problem is with non-registered guides guiding then how is this going to prevent it from happening?

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    Member MaximumPenetration's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaindd View Post
    Just wait to they do an interview with your kids. Did you catch those big halibut or did your daddy reel them in for you. Or how many fish did you catch? I always like it when these guys at the cleaning table are talking and one asks how much should we tip the captain? When is the last time you tipped one of your friends? It is going to get better. Valdez is going to have cammera's installed in the small boat harbor I wonder who will be watching us?
    My kids have been taught to tell the game warden/federal officer to ask any questions to daddy. The third time the AHOLE asks the same question, my kids are instructed to tell them to "eat ***** and die".

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    That is the same thing i taught my kids but instead of telling them to eat and die i taught them to tell them " i told you to ask dad already two times. you need a hearing aid". The only reason they are talking to you is to try and build a case against you. that is their job

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    I've never had the troopers quiz my kids on anything. They've been nothing but nice to me, but I've been nothing but nice to them too. I find they are usually in a good mood if I make an effort to pull up them, before they pull up to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumPenetration View Post
    My kids have been taught to tell the game warden/federal officer to ask any questions to daddy. The third time the AHOLE asks the same question, my kids are instructed to tell them to "eat ***** and die".
    No offense but this is just stupid. First, having been in this situation as a peace officer (ADF&G employees have badges for fish and game laws) I can tell you when one fails the attitude test it is more trouble for everyone. It gives the impression that one is hiding something.

    Sometimes I was just curious when I asked a kid about catching a fish what their experience was so we could share a good moment - so they would not be afraid of an officer. If they did what you suggested it puts an officer in a terrible situation as it looks like someone is hiding something. That usually prompts more investigation not less.

    In addition, for kids it is imperative for them to trust officers. They may have to be saved someday and you want them to go to the officer not be afraid of them.

    If you are legal there is no reason a child should not speak to an officer. They have done nothing wrong and neither has the family. The die comment is just totally out of line and you should be ashamed of yourself for teaching this to kids. Is that really good parenting??? We live in a violent society and promoting that kind of talk with kids is irresponsible.

    kgpcr - I hope you would just tell the kids to take the officer to their dad who should be close. As I pointed out most of the time the officer is not trying to build a case. They usually like kids who fish - no officer is going to make a court case on what a kid says. However, if the dad did break the law and the kid reveals that then dad will have some explaining to do. All of this is strange to me as both comments imply you two break the law and are afraid that your kids will spill the beans. See my officer training just kicked in and you are on my radar screen.

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