Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Barnes loading data 45-70 question

  1. #1
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default Barnes loading data 45-70 question

    Hi all,

    Has anyone checked Barnes data as far as their 400 grain original for the 45-70? I was online checking load data for the 45-70 Ruger #1 loads. I compared them to load published by Barnes Bullets and I found what to me is a problem. Barnes data shows for a 400 grain bullet, 50 grains of H4198 as a max load at 55,000 psi. They also claim that it is 103% load density. The Hodgdon website has a max load for a 400 grain bullet as 53 grains of H4198 at a max pressure of 56,000 psi. The velocities also seem to off as well between the two sites. Seems all other parameters published are the same. I am looking for a load to send a 400 grain bullet to 2150 fps and do so with 55,000 psi or less. I called Hodgdon and they said their info is not wrong......Then when I called Barnes I got the same line......

    Thanks for your insights....

    Ron

  2. #2

    Default

    I'm sure it reflects differences between their individual guns or pressure barrels. Could even be that they were using different lots of powders, maybe even primers and cases- even though they're the same brand. When you start getting up toward the top end of the pressure scale, minute differences in guns and components can have a large impact.

    Worse yet, your gun is going to be different than either of theirs, and I'd bet a large cup of coffee you won't be using the same lots of powder, primers or cases. All you can do is start low and work up to find the limits for your gun. If you don't like what you get, sell it and buy another, then start all over again.

  3. #3
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    I hear ya. The kicker is normally bullet companies push the edge not powder companies. Here it is the other way. The starting loads between the two are still high. H4198 pressure builds fast, so an error on my part could be my last. The max on my gun is 55-57k psi, so that doesn't leave much room for an OPPS!

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    ... so that doesn't leave much room for an OPPS!
    Ain't that the truth!

    Between powder companies and bullet companies pushing the limits, dig around and find some of the older Hodgdon manuals. Holy cow! They've got loads listed there that you can't get into a case with a drop tube, much less shoot safely in any gun I've ever seen or heard of. I keep their manual #22 around for yucks and amazement, but I won't use it for anything else but starting loads. I figure they bought their data by the roll on the toilet paper aisle in their grocery store. Things have improved a lot since then, but those manuals along with PO Ackley's still circulate. PO is another topic- he made neither bullets nor powder, so I figure some of his loads were designed to sell replacement guns and barrels.

  5. #5
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    The Hodgdon website uses a Speer JFP which is .972" long. The Barnes is 1.07". I guess that .04" equals 3 grains of powder, but the barnes load data says 103% load density at 50 grains let alone 53! What I want to use is that Remington 405 JSP we talked about before. It is exactly 1.0" in length. I think if I use the Barnes Data I could get it to 2150 fps even using AA1680 which is also at 50 grains for 55k psi. This is not my main load, more of a close up Bear load. I would like to keep it around 2000 fps for a moose load so my "everyday shooting" pressure would be around 45k psi.

  6. #6
    Member .338-06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    1,045

    Default

    Hey Ron, if you have some spare time look at the differences in load data between Hodgdon and Barnes using Barnes bullets. Hodgdon has a load for 300 grain XFB going 2700+ in .458 mag, Barnes has the same bullet going no more than 2500.

    It seems to differ from company to company, Nosler & Barnes seem pretty cautious, Speer less so. Hodgdon seems pretty hot with their loads. And Accurate Arms seems to be all over the map. All this in my limited experience, as I load for only half a dozen calibers.
    I may be slow, but I get where I'm going!

  7. #7

    Default

    Hey Ron- In comparing bullet length be careful to make sure that the cannelure is the same distance back from the nose on each. If not, changes in bullet length may have no bearing on seating depth.

  8. #8
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Hey Ron- In comparing bullet length be careful to make sure that the cannelure is the same distance back from the nose on each. If not, changes in bullet length may have no bearing on seating depth.

    Thanks. I got an email back from Ramshot (Accurate powders) this morning:

    Question:

    I have a question about AA 1680 and the 45-70. I want to use the Hornady
    350 gr RN and I need some help. I have run the numbers on the loads and
    need confirmation. He is what I have: 50 gr of AA 1680 gives 46750 psi and
    2223 fps and a max load of 55 grains at 55000 psi and 2383 fps.

    Answer:

    Yes your values are reasonably close at the 50gr charge mass however the 55grains might be higher ca 57000Psi.




    If you remember back to the discussion last spring, The Remington 405 JSP and the Hornady 350 RN was the top two choice by the panel. I am looking for data on both in the 55k psi or less range.


    Ron

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Veneta, OR
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    FYI - If anyone is using one of the first 2 Barnes manuals they were ABSOLUTELY FULL of serious mistakes and errors and I mean FULL ! I found countless misprints and errors that could easily get a guy in trouble when loading - Barnes got a new addition out pretty quick but never took responsibility for those manuals and I think it only by the grace of God that they didn't get sued

  10. #10
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Grass Lake Michigan
    Posts
    1,978

    Default

    This is the new online data. The problem after is both the powder company and the bullet companies won't fess up to the errors in their data. They are also not going to fix it any time soon. Here is another data issue: Hodgdon site for the 45-70 Marlin loads, 46 grains IMR 4198 equals 37,600 CUP. Same parameters for the Ruger #1, 47 grains equals 35,400 CUP. That is a 4000+ PSI difference. Now if that was your guide gun and it blew up.............

  11. #11
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Ron, just out of curiosity, why are you trying to push a 400 grain bullet out at that velocity? I found if I push them too fast they don't shoot straight and that's with a 24" barrel. I have a 450 Marlin not a 45-70 but the bullets are the same and the 450 Marlin and the modern Marlin 45-70 are very close. 2150 is really at the top with a 400 gn bullet and I doubt it will shoot very straight if you get there. I bought some of the new .458 Barnes Busters and tried them at max and got 10 inch groups at 100 yards, if that is even considered a group. I can get 5 consecutive shots in 3 inches at 100 yards with the Remington 405 using 55 grains of H335. Thats about 1850ish from 24 inches of barrel. Same load drops to 2" groups with Cast Performance Bullets. I guess that it seems like assuming a lot of risk for little gain. The strength of the 405 grain bullet is the weight not the speed per se. An accurate 400 gns leaving the muzzle at 1800 feet will be just as "if not more" effective as an inaccurate 400 at 2150 at any range with a 45-70 IMO. I consider mine to be a 200 yard gun at best depending on the critter. If your looking to get bullet expanding performance at 50 yards or less and don't mind a 3 or 4 inch group at 50 yards that may be something I have not considered. Awhile back when the rifle was new to me, I was trying to get the most speed I could and couldn't get where I wanted, accuracy wise. Good luck to you, I will continue to watch to see if you get there and would love to hear what kind of performance you get. For me, I have settled with 405 cast bullets at about 1800FPS. The 350 gn A-Frame is pretty impressive but it costs so dang much I rarely shoot them.

  12. #12
    Member Armymark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    This is the new online data. The problem after is both the powder company and the bullet companies won't fess up to the errors in their data. They are also not going to fix it any time soon. Here is another data issue: Hodgdon site for the 45-70 Marlin loads, 46 grains IMR 4198 equals 37,600 CUP. Same parameters for the Ruger #1, 47 grains equals 35,400 CUP. That is a 4000+ PSI difference. Now if that was your guide gun and it blew up.............
    The SAAMI pressure for the 45-70 Lever is 40,000CUP and for the modern(Ruger No.1...) is 50,000CUP so both loads are within specs and the risk of blowing up is unlikely. I wonder if they are tested from spscific barrle configurations. I know my Ruger No.1s have a lot of throat compared to other guns of the same caliber. With the same bukllet the 46 grains of IMR 4198 are max in the lever action chamber and 47 grains is the start load in the modern chamber(Ruger No.1...) the Modern rifles can shoot all kinds of spitzers. The difference must be in the design capability between the two different chambers. I don't think in this case it is an error, I think the design of the Modern chambers allow higher pressure. What I really find interesting is that according to the Hodgdon online data the difference between a Max of 50 grains(2089FPS) and 46 grains(1860FPS) is only 129 FPS. The load data must stay inside SAAMI or they become liable. The 45-70 has three catagories of data which is why Marlin and Hornady probably tried the .450 Marlin, but thats a different thread.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Wasilla
    Posts
    515

    Default

    Just a few thoughts.

    try looking up the the original 45=70 loads, then try looking up what they were capable of killing. Maybe you don't need all the velocity.
    All loading manuals tell you to start low and work your way up because as already stated all components, guns are different.
    make sure the .458 cal bullet you wish to use will produce the terminal performance you expect from a 45-70.
    a 45-70 is a formable weapon, but still just a 45-70, but don't try to make it preform outside its envelope. many moose and bear are killed each year with 400 gr bullets at 2000 fps
    be safe, be careful and have fun.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •