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Thread: Expansion of Military Trianing Area's in Interior AK

  1. #1
    Member Steve Springer's Avatar
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    Angry Expansion of Military Trianing Area's in Interior AK

    WOW.....Not Good....Please go and testify!

    The JPARC is proposing a large expansion of Military Operations Areas to see
    the details go here:
    http://www.jparceis.com/prop_actions.aspx

    The proposed action that most likely will be of interest is the expansion of
    the Fox 3 and establishment of the adjacent Paxson MOA. The floor of
    training operations will be 500 feet above ground level in the entire area
    that basically extends over most of the southern part of the Alaska Range
    and the Talkeetna Mountains between the Parks Highway and the Tok cutoff.
    This includes the entire Wild and scenic parts of the Delta and Gulkana
    rivers, Tangle Lakes, and the upper part of the Susitna River.

    I can tell you from personal experience that it is pretty darn 'exciting' to
    have a fighter pass 500 feet over your head at near the speed of sound (or
    higher).

    The only chance for in person public comments is:

    Thursday, January 20
    *12:00 - 2:00 p.m. & 4:00 - 8:00 p.m.
    With presentations at 12:30 and 4:30 p.m.
    Princess Fairbanks Hotel
    4477 Pike’s Landing
    Fairbanks, Alaska 99709

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    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Well, being that I'm Pro- Military and retired from it, I'm all for it !!!!...... with the mission of the F-22's and the F-16 aggressors from eielson they are now mostly Air to Air combat, and that is where they practice. The Military force here in AK is a vital to our countries defense. There is a minimum ceiling where they do this and I'm sure they are not going to buzz a hunter below the "threshold" just for kicks. I've been across the Tanana River at blair lakes while f-16s and A-10's did their strafing, yet the resident moose, bears, and wolves still frequent looking for a handout from the kitchen.

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    will any of this new area be closed due to military operations? i dont see a problem if it remains open to the public to use, but now if they plan on closeing it off then im all for complaining, the current borders of the airspace borders closely to some good sheep hunting, there are curently a few restrictions, and i havent noticed any current problems, but then again i dont hunt it often, i dont think it would change much, only the excperiance of solitude, but then there are so many 4 wheelers,boats and planes there anyway dont think you get much solitude.

  4. #4
    Member Steve Springer's Avatar
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    Default Go to the meeting

    Well I don't know all the answers other than what's on the web sited and the maps, but I plan on going to the meeting to find out. Hope others do as well.

    Steve

  5. #5

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    I know I have been out in the Western Alaska Range when fighter jets were breaking the sound barrier and creating sonic booms. I didn't mind it. I thought it was kinda cool. If that is all that is gonna happen I don't see a problem with it. If the military decides to close all hunting along the Denali Highway, the Central Alaska Range, The Gulkana River etc. then I would think that would truly suck, but probably not much we can do about it. The feds do what they want. They're guns are bigger than ours.

  6. #6
    Member Dirtofak's Avatar
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    500 ft AGL troubles me a bit. That is pretty low. A lot of area 13 could be effected. What will that do to the game for a couple years until they get used to the noise?
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    Bill Hicks

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    how about we trade them.... We take the proposed area and they can have Denali Nat Park.

  8. #8
    Member kahahawai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtofak View Post
    500 ft AGL troubles me a bit. That is pretty low. A lot of area 13 could be effected. What will that do to the game for a couple years until they get used to the noise?

    500 AGL?.......How do you know this?........ Maybe at an air show !!!! At $150M a piece I don't think these pilots are out joy riding on the expense of taxpayers....they do have a mission, and their mission does involve training, believe me ,they are tracked and watched at all times, not only by their wing man but we have an AWACS up their looking at the air operations. I don't believe they are closing any areas. Like bushwack said, they fly all the time over the AK range, and I have seen it myself, and I dont think it has affected any wildlife.

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    It's been my experience in the 40 Mile country that they do indeed fly very low.....low enough to scare cub pilots.....the caribou were in panic because of the frequent sonic booms......many of the pilots were foreigners.

    I don't think the plan is close areas to hunting but to close airspace during manuevers. The Air Force intends to use much of this for unmanned aircraft testing and training.....

    The areas affected also include DCUA.

    I'm pro-military and realize we are in a war but the Feds have 60% of Alaska now.....why not utilize it.

    Go to the meetings and get the information

  10. #10
    Member f0zzy2's Avatar
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    I'm a vet and pro military but I agree thay have enough space in AK already. It has turned into a PITA to BearBait across the Tanana. Has everyone forgot about the F22 that just crashed not far from that area? I would be at that meeting on the 20th but i'm stuck on the slope. I hope some of you others will be there to voice your opinions.

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    They will do what they do. Attend and get informed, but do not expect them to change their operations by your complaints. Personally, I am in awe whenever I see a military asset fly over my head and I see it everytime I hunt GMU 20A/B.

    The critters will adjust to it, so must the humans.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    how about we trade them.... We take the proposed area and they can have Denali Nat Park.
    Good idea. Although the feds already own the NP. You can't give them something they already own.

    Quote Originally Posted by .338WM View Post
    They will do what they do. Attend and get informed, but do not expect them to change their operations by your complaints. Personally, I am in awe whenever I see a military asset fly over my head and I see it everytime I hunt GMU 20A/B.

    The critters will adjust to it, so must the humans.
    I agree. I doubt it will affect the critters, and what we think about it has little to do with what they decide. They will do what they do. That's why it's important to elect officials in office who are more likely to downsize the federal government. I'm not going to name names, but I'll just say the wrong person got elected as our senator last November. He wasn't perfect, but far better than who's in there now IMO.

  13. #13

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    Easy everyone...I am a retired Army Aviator and still fly civilian helicopters in South Central, AK. First a little education: MOAs are Military Operations Areas. They are special use airspace, but are nonregulatory. What that means is they consist of airspace of defined vertical and lateral limits established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR (instrument flight rules). I am with Kahahawai...AK and our military training is vital. MOAs allow military pilots, flying military equipment to be exempt from FAR (Federal Aviation Regulation) 91.303. FAR 91.303 prohibits aerobatic flight.

    In short, military pilots, in military aircraft, in active MOAs may be conducting air combat tactics, air intercepts, aerobatics, formation training, and low altitude tactics. DOD has additionally been issued an authorization to operate acft in excess of 250 knots within active MOAs. If the airspace is active, only IFR aircraft will be rerouted around the MOA because ATC (Air Traffic Control) can't guarantee aircraft separation. If we are flying our Super Cub or any aircraft through active MOAs VFR (Visual Flight Rules), there is no restriction on us. (Hence, nonregulatory) However, we should exercise EXTREME caution while flying within an active MOA! Prudent pilots...all of us here in AK(I hope)...should call the nearest FSS (Flight Service Station) to obtain accurate real-time information regarding the MOA hours of operation.

    MOAs will not have any impact nor restrictions "on the ground". Prohibited and Restricted Areas (Regulatory) are established for that. Those are in AK too.

    Anyway, I have been in a combat theatre and thanked God these "Jet Jockies" are proficient at what they do! For ALL of us.

    Respectfully,
    Brett

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    I'm definitely pro military, and understand the need for training areas, but having seen what low-flying high-speed aircraft can do to caribou (especially during calving) and falcons and other critters, this near doubling of MOAs, along with the 500' AGL has me real concerned.

    Encourage people to go to the meetings and learn more about this and how it can affect hunting and the critters in these areas. At the very least, if this does go through, would like to see the air force avoid the more populated areas and calving grounds during that time of year.

    I have to ask too, how much is enough air space for the military? Do they really need to nearly double the operations areas? Red Flag and other big military training exercises seem to be getting bigger and bigger every year, with many other countries participating. We're at the northern boundary of one of the MOAs, and while I sure respect and appreciate the need for training and what our military does to defend and protect our country, I am sure glad when Red Flag is over in the spring. If we expand things as planned and continue to have weeks-long large military training exercises, along with the low-level flying and sonic booms (that aren't supposed to happen), it can affect a wide variety of animals and disrupt where and when they calve or nest etc.

  15. #15

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    Heck Mark maybe you'll get that new caribou herd for your back yard, you asked for as a Christmas present.
    The pipeline doesn't make any noise or have a continous supply of people and vehicles around it, and the oil companies/government had to do studies for years on how it would effect the animals and their habits. But if the military wants it; it really doesn't matter anymore. IT'LL HAPPEN !
    HOWDY MARK !!
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

  16. #16
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    All in all it will do less to the game than the expansion of Anchorage had on it
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

  17. #17
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    A lot of research was done on the effects of military overflights on the Fortymile herd. If anyone is interested, here is a paper on it:
    http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/pubs/...fs/overflt.pdf

    Skip Ambrose also did some fine work and research on the effects of low-level high-speed flights on peregrine falcons.

    Howdy back at ya Ronnie!





  18. #18

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    wouldn't the ocean make more sense to train over?
    ...Jackie Bushman is a TOOL

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by y2kadle View Post
    wouldn't the ocean make more sense to train over?
    Good point. Maybe it something to do with the weather or lack thereof. Maybe less VFR opportunity oversea or something.

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    Is there no plan to have a meeting in the Anchorage Area? Yes it is closer to Square Banks but a lot of people from Anchorage use the area also.

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