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Thread: Question re non-bailer

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    Default Question re non-bailer

    Is it possible to set up a non bailing raft with a motor? I like the payload to weight ratio of the bucket rafts but not sure if I can get one that would take a small outboard. I don't care about comfort or speed so a non-bailer seems like best bet for me to take moose hunting vs bailer or cataraft. Main thing we are after is payload for the money. We would be on calm water only so rapids are not a concern. Thanks.

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    Only run a motor on my self-bailer but should be better with a bucket boat; no spray coming in the holes/lacing.

    Bucket boats will be flat and suffer from limited tracking ability, especially with a motor. Some bailers also have flat bottoms, but some (like my Hyside) have ridges that offer, perhaps, some slightly improved tracking performance.

    Good luck!

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    You can run motors on self bailers, and one way to keep the water from rushing in , is to weave a rope into the holes in the selfbailer.
    also I cross skilak lake with my self bailer with a 9.5 hp all the time. I travel at about 5 mph and take on little water, as it runs out as fast as it comes in..
    If not worried about speed, self bailers are ok.
    We make a boat called the kenai drifter with a raised floor and larger tubes. the raised floor helps it track better and also helps to keep the water from coming up thru the holes. you would be amazed at what 3 or 4 inches of raised floor will do to keep the water friction down.
    I have a couple of both kinds of rafts, and If you want to try one out, come by this summer and we can look at both options and I can show you what I know..
    thanks
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    alaskacanoe,

    What about the original question of the bucket boat with a motor?

    I visualize a loaded bucket boat being awkwardly pushed like a barge with a motor behind it, but I have read they track better than sb boats. He references the payload to weight ratio, but isn't it high because you can load them heavy and they'll still draft so long as the tubes are above water?

    I am thinking of borrowing a 9.9hp from a friend to put behind my 14' sb to run the canyon and stuff. I have an aire, so we'll see how the sewn floor fares.

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    I don't own anymore of the bucket boats. after you go to a self bailer, its hard to want to deal with the cold floor, a floor you cant really stand up on, a floor that seems to always find a pin hole leak that keeps you bailing..
    Dan ( Danattherock) has a bucket boat he bought a few years ago and he seems to enjoy it,, but not sure if he motors it.
    I used to motor mine accross skilak all the time and I could go no faster or had different steering/ tracking speed differences that I can recall than with the self bailer.
    Yes you can put more weight in a bucket boat.. its just the laws of science that you can displace more water if you dont have holes in your floor, but I have had over 2500 lbs in both types of rafts on the same rivers and did fine with both,, other than I always had water in the floor of the bucket boat.. and I mean ALWAYS... and My feet were always colder.. that air cushion floor of the self bailer keeps your feet dry, and warmer.. and your boat stays cleaner and easier to wash out.
    just so many advantages to the self bailer that I just have not gone back to them..
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

  6. #6

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    Before "SOTAR" came out with self-bailing rafts in 1982, all we had to work with was the standard bucket boat. Worked fine! have run many class IV-V rivers all over the world in them. Personally I have a 12' , 15', and 16' non-bailers in my guiding fleet. Rolls up to fit in a cub and weighs 25% less. Works fine for the trade off on normal rivers when air freight and too much class water is not a factor. I do have a dozen or so SB in my rental fleet which work best in certain applications. Just saying don't cut short the bucket boats - they will float you out just fine!!
    Goo

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    Goo,

    Have you ever put a motor on one? Doesn't seem like it would work well. Maybe with a hard drop in floor it would function like a zodiac?

    Scott

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    Scott, Not much help on the motor thing. Mainly because I don't have one. Years ago, when I was a bear guide, I had a 6hp on a 10' non-bailing SOTAR river raft to get around Kokanok lake and move camp as need be. Worked fine with a very heavy load, just took my time and went slow. I Just turned in my new specks to SOTAR yesterday on the 2011 "moose boat". Did have the motor option in mind. She will be 15' long with 19" tubes and 24" inside. They are making her with the tapered SL bow and standard ST stern with a little less rocker to work better with a kicker. As for the bailing floor, she will have a flap made of double layered 40 oz. urethane covering the drain holes welded on one side. This should keep the water from coming in under power and still let her bail fine. I feel that the I-beam floor will help with the tracking as it does in rowing opposed to the flat drop-stitch, that we also offer, which spins better in white water. Will have the prototype at the SPORTSMAN SHOW this spring. Hope I answered some of your question.
    Goo

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Attachment 44437iphone 221.jpg

    This is a self bailer we put together for a fellow last summer.
    It has a motor mount that is adjustable to any depth and works well,
    we motor across skilak lake with GPS at 5 mph with no problem with water coming in the raft and exiting evenly.
    floor stayed dry and moved nicely even with wind. moved down the kenai river below skilak and actually motor up a few places.
    Fishing in this rig worked great and the guy that had me make the frame used it to hunt from and also to fish remote rivers and lakes.
    he is a pilot and takes the whole setup in the plane.
    It tracks nicely as the bottom of the tubes have a length wise grid and also extra protection called Grizzly Claw armor,
    The raised floor also helps to keep it tracking nicely.
    Let me know if you want to try one out this spring
    Max
    Last edited by Alaskacanoe; 01-14-2011 at 08:54.
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    Question I can't see it

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskacanoe View Post
    Attachment 44437

    This is a self bailer we put together for a fellow last summer....
    Max
    Max,

    I can't see the picture. I see a clickable link that says "Attachment 44437" but I don't get a picture when I click on it.

    Sorry in advance if the problem is on my end. Do other members see the picture?

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    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    vBulletin Message
    Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator.
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

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    Default Thanks Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by danattherock View Post
    vBulletin Message
    Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator.
    Then the issue is probably not on my end; thanks Dan. I guess you did (with your post) just notify an administrator, since max is a mod.

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    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    some pictures that work,, sorry

    [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Max/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/Max/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png[/IMG]
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

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    How a Kenai Drifter boat is designed
    First the boat is a self bailer, it has a raised floor, the 14 foot boat is raised 3 inches so the boat actually responds like a cat boat as the floor has little contact with the water until you get a good load on the boat, then the floor comes into play as added displacement so you can haul the big loads like when you have a hunting camp, and loaded with meat etc.
    Notice the Grizzly claw armor, this is super tough material that is designed to take abuse from dragging over rocky stream beds etc.
    its design helps your raft track as you row or motor.
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

  15. #15

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    I didn't read every reply, but my 2 cents with non-bailers with motors is this:

    I found non bailers a little to flexible in the floor under power, sort of like a ***** on a *****...with the floor you loose grace and agility. But with the bailers the floor is rigid, which improves fuel consumption and performance at all speeds. Just do what AKCanoe suggested and rope through the holes to plug 'em up a bit.

    Can it be done...? Of course (edited)!
    Last edited by Michael Strahan; 01-15-2011 at 14:40.

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    Then the issue is probably not on my end; thanks Dan. I guess you did (with your post) just notify an administrator, since max is a mod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexus View Post
    Then the issue is probably not on my end; thanks Dan. I guess you did (with your post) just notify an administrator, since max is a mod.
    Interesting.... this is a verbatim copy/paste from post #12 on this same thread.

    From a new user whose only other post is also a verbatim copy/paste from a post a few up from there. Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIYhunter View Post
    Is it possible to set up a non bailing raft with a motor? I like the payload to weight ratio of the bucket rafts but not sure if I can get one that would take a small outboard. I don't care about comfort or speed so a non-bailer seems like best bet for me to take moose hunting vs bailer or cataraft. Main thing we are after is payload for the money. We would be on calm water only so rapids are not a concern. Thanks.

    Most certainly a doable option mounting outboard motors on a non-bailing rafts. Back in the day, this was a fine, compact (even the big rafts when folded up) very stable and lightweight option for ship to shore exploration... particularly in narrow fjords with calving glaciers and high wave potential. The ol' double-ender in many respects had a nicer niche for this activity than transom sport-boats. Small engines like 6hp worked well, and of course easier to pack around or put-in/take-out over the side of quite large vessels.

    Most of these boats where AVON rubber boats back then... today, you'd do much better in a far stiffer and more rugged non-bailer like the Urethane SOTAR. Go bigger here like 15', 16', 18'.... more bang for the buck plus greater hauling payload to boat weight ratio.

    Rapids or no rapids... back then (and even outfitted better yet today) you can do all in a non-bailing raft. Payloads of gear or meat and such would need to be placed atop heavy duty mesh gear platforms.

    Performance will generally be equivalent to 3-5 HP no matter how much outboard ya put on... in other words think max torque would be like rowing as hard as you possibly can for <10 seconds --- except w/ outboard this remains a constant all day long if necessary. Another good equivalent factoring for your perspective is coasting a bit faster downstream, but don't expect to realistically ascend much stretch of river with greater current than 2-3 knots.

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIYhunter View Post
    Is it possible to set up a non bailing raft with a motor? I like the payload to weight ratio of the bucket rafts but not sure if I can get one that would take a small outboard. I don't care about comfort or speed so a non-bailer seems like best bet for me to take moose hunting vs bailer or cataraft. Main thing we are after is payload for the money. We would be on calm water only so rapids are not a concern. Thanks.
    Yes. But I would recommend nothing larger than a 9.9. The round boat has a flat floor and is a bit squirrely with an outboard. Also if you try to go faster than a fast trolling speed, the water will push up on your floor and sort of dam up against your aft tube, just in front of the motor. It could cause some cavitation.

    You need an over-the-tube transom that secures to D-rings on both the inside and the outside of the boat. Most round boats have a D-ring on the outside of the bow, but not on the inside, so you'll likely have to add a D-ring.

    Pretty much any round boat will work for this.

    -Mike
    LOST CREEK COMPANY: Specializing in Alaska hunt consultation and planning for do-it-yourself hunts, fully outfitted hunts, and guided hunts.
    CLICK HERE to send me a private message.
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