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Thread: Toughest 300 gr. bullet in the 45-70

  1. #1
    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    Default Toughest 300 gr. bullet in the 45-70

    Hi all,

    I'm looking for the toughest bullet for the 45-70 in 300 grains. I will be pushing it to 2450 fps. I have read all 300 gr. bullets in the 45-70 pushed to those speeds "explode" on impact or they should be slowed down to 2100 fps? I need your help in this area.

    Thanks for your insights......


    Ron

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    Member Smokey's Avatar
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    Howdy Ron, what ya gonna do with that combo anyway? Sounds like a real tail kicker!
    Randy
    When asked what state I live in I say "The State of Confusion", better known as IL....

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    Best I've heard for that kinda mv is Barnes TSX FN in 250 or 300. Not used myself as I only use hard cast at the moment.
    Problems with the TSX however is that they are long so you are in pressure problem territory (but you knew that anyway!).
    Others I have used are the Hornady LEs, they get close to the MV you are looking at, but I have stopped using them as they give the odd feed issue in my 1895.

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    Hornady 325 FTX has published data to 2100fps. Quite a bit shy of your 2450 goal. How tough are they?

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    Barnes original 300gr bullets have data to 2400fps.

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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    I am looking for a good "all round" combo for Deer, Elk and maybe Moose. I read that most 300's in the 45-70 are for slow velocity impacts. That bags the question why companies publish data if their bullets can't do it. If all else fails and I can't get a 300, I will try the Remington 405's. I have seen a lot of folks like them. I will push them only to 2150 fps. Most postings say that is the max for them.

    Ron

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    They're 350's rather than 300's, but the best in my experience from a 458 Winnie have been the FNSP HVY Kodiak Bullet from Alaska Bullet Works. If you tried to drive them fast enough to come apart in a 45-70, it better be a Ruger #1 and not a Marlin. My local source dried up and I haven't bought any in several years and I'm not sure about availability, but I did find this listing on the web.

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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    They're 350's rather than 300's, but the best in my experience from a 458 Winnie have been the FNSP HVY Kodiak Bullet from Alaska Bullet Works. If you tried to drive them fast enough to come apart in a 45-70, it better be a Ruger #1 and not a Marlin. My local source dried up and I haven't bought any in several years and I'm not sure about availability, but I did find this listing on the web.
    Thanks. You and I have talked about the 400's last spring. I think your right about 350's and I should stop looking for the 300's. In your experience, how would a 300 gr LBT hardcast do in deer to moose range? To light? Not good at 2450 fps? Thanks again for your help.

    Ron

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    I doubt either moose or deer would last long at all with your hard cast load, but I've never pushed them that fast. Deer and moose both die easy, and unless you really needed the trajectory I wouldn't feel the need to push them anywhere near that fast. Heck, based on handgun results I'd be confident with a 300 grain hard cast at half that velocity.

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    Where are you hunting? By that I mean what do you mean by 'Deer, Moose Range'. In a 45-70, pretty much anything 300Gr and up running around 2000 FPS is going to drop a deer or moose out to around 200yds. Many documented kills out to 300yds. As you know, with a 45/70 the bullet retains 'killing potential' for a long range, the biggest issue is the trajectory and being able to accurately 'hold over' at extended range. Personally I would never take a hunting shot with my Marlin beyond 200yds.
    This is quite a useful table for an idea:
    http://www.cpcartridge.com/45-70marlin-B.htm

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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    To be perfectly honest, I don't take shots longer then 125 yards. I try and get as close as possible. The question has to do with (which has been beat to death on this forum) the notion of running into a bear when hunting. I generally don't like to mix loads when I hunt. I am trying to find a good all around bullet for the 45-70 and near max ruger #1 speeds. Here is my thought: You are in southern AK deer hunting, you are gutting your deer, when Mr. Bear gets within 10 yards of you...... you get the picture. I just got done talking to a friend who shot his moose in 20A only to have a bear on it within 20 minutes, followed by 2 more. I generally leave the bears alone. Just on the off chance, I'm on the menu....... This is not paranoia, just good planning...... Thanks guys for the advice.

    Ron

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    Without beating another thread to death, I've no use for a 300 grain bullet in a 45/70. I've used them on whitetails (Remington & Hornady) with minimal satisfaction, but will not do that again. If you are limiting yourself to 125 yards as a maximum range then you will get more consistent terminal performance from a heavier slug in the 45/70 without any detriment to your trajectory. The deer will be just as dead and you'll have a more dependable bullet for larger animals should the need arise.

    You could use a 300-350 grain TSX or in a #1 a 350 grain A-Frame or Speer for dependable penetration if you must use lighter bullets, but I would stick with a Remington or hard cast 400-405 at 1800-2000 fps and call it good. Given your parameters, it seems that your concerns for terminal performance get much easier by simply adding more weight to your projectile.
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

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    Member GrassLakeRon's Avatar
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    I was thinking a remington 405 gr. JHP or 405 gr. LBT Hardcast at 2150 fps. I glad I can put this to rest. Now it is time to start loading

    Thanks Again

    Ron

  14. #14

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    I can speak up for the 405 Remington JSP (not the JHP). I'm pushing them to 2200-2250 from my 450 Alaskan with great results. I know they're not "supposed to" hold together according to modern theorists, but that was the standard bullet in my particular rifle starting back in the 1950's, and I saw no reason to change when I got it in 1978. I've never shot a bear with it, but the previous owner had 3 browns and who knows how many blacks under his belt with it, along with a moose a year since the 1950's. Never a bullet failure, but always a very reliable blend of expansion and penetration. At the very least, with performance so good in so basic a bullet, almost anything stouter will certainly hold together better if you feel the need for even more assurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassLakeRon View Post
    To be perfectly honest, I don't take shots longer then 125 yards. I try and get as close as possible. The question has to do with (which has been beat to death on this forum) the notion of running into a bear when hunting. I generally don't like to mix loads when I hunt. I am trying to find a good all around bullet for the 45-70 and near max ruger #1 speeds. Here is my thought: You are in southern AK deer hunting, you are gutting your deer, when Mr. Bear gets within 10 yards of you...... you get the picture. I just got done talking to a friend who shot his moose in 20A only to have a bear on it within 20 minutes, followed by 2 more. I generally leave the bears alone. Just on the off chance, I'm on the menu....... This is not paranoia, just good planning...... Thanks guys for the advice.

    Ron
    That explains your question, thanks. For 'bear defense' (done to death around here) a 405Gr or bigger running at 1700FPS and up will do the job very well. The biggest problem with going faster will be taming the gun for good follow up shots - I am going to try and scan and post an article written by a ADF&G guy of a mauling on Afognak, it took 3 rds of 375H&H (260Gr Nosler Partitions) to kill the bear. Follow-up ability is important.
    Also a 405Gr hardcast at 1700FPS will stop a deer or moose in it's tracks at 125yds and below.
    I say all this because after much discussion locally (my chosen woods gun a Marlin 1895) my do it all round is 405Gr Lasercast at 1750FPS. I do not feel under-gunned in bear territory.

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    As always thanks for the info. I think most people ask the "bear questions" because of the stories we here about the bad days and bad bears. In my life I have seen only large black bears. The largest at just over 630 lbs. The first one was 425 lbs and dead set on doing harm. I was 16 and armed with a 30-06 w/150 gr winchester silver tips. The bear was killed (not by me) a short time later trying to kill, of all things, a pair of dogs at a nearby house. I have a 375 H&H. I want to try a "big bore" and want to make an informed and educated go at it, rather then "buy it" and deal later. The 375 is heavy and the 45-70 is 3.5 pounds lighter. The 45-70 also seems like a good choice for getting good performance and still having "bear protection" if my future judgment or lack of, depending on what happened, gets me in trouble.

    As always , Thanks for the info!

    Ron


    PS> won't a FAQ's on bear protection be good in this forum so we don't have to get so many questions on it.

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    [QUOTE=PS> won't a FAQ's on bear protection be good in this forum so we don't have to get so many questions on it.[/QUOTE]

    Ha ha ha, that might be the most optimism i've seen on this site!

    I totally agree with your thinking on "bear protection" while "bear hunting". I think the difference isn't realized often enough. Your choice of gun/caliber is GREAT in my opinion, let 'er fly...

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