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Thread: Home defense gun with children?

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    Member big_dog60's Avatar
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    Default Home defense gun with children?

    My wife and I are looking into how to have a home defence gun with children present.
    My current idea is to mount it above the bed near the ceiling on a gun rack. We are currently planning on using a 12 gauge pump and filling the tube but leaving the chamber empty.

    Does any one out there have any recomendations?

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    There is no substitute for educating your kids at the earliest possible age, that guns are cool, useful, and a cultural right, but that if handled incorrectly can kill. A have several guns in my house which are always loaded. They do not have locks on them, nor are they locked away. My youngest son and my grandsons have been educated from toddlerhood that they may not so much as even go near these guns or any other guns in my home (or anyone else's home) unless it is with an adult or it is out in the field or range.
    Obviously, one must take age into account, store them high but conveniently. But educate, educate, educate as to proper handling of all guns. Get them toy guns and have them role play as if they were real. Get them their own real gun as young as possible and educate them some more.

    We try to make everything safe in our society. Accidents happen but generally it is far more common with ignorant people than with educated people.

  3. #3

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    I went with a semi-auto pistol with loaded magazine but empty chamber. I figure by the time they are old enough to have the strength to rack the slide then I will have taught them gun safety enough to trust them or else I will switch to something else.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I don't like to have the ammo in the shotgun myself.... I prefer to have multiple steps that I can easily overcome but that would take time for a child. One easy one if you wish to keep a full tube is to keep the shotgun cocked on an empty chamber. At least in this case the child would have to find the slide release, rack the slide and disengage the safety. I go with 7 1/2 shot in my 12 gauge Mossberg 500. I also keep an AR 15 with a full magazine out of reach of the kids and hidden. W/ the bolt locked back I can get to the mag easily ram it home, slap the paddle and I am a safety switch away from being hot.

    I am leaning toward going to a Saiga 12 for a combo of the above safety features. I can keep a mag or two full of 7 1/2 shot hidden or stored in our quick access pistol vault. It offers all of the speed of my AR15 but adds the safety of the bird shot when it comes to reducing the likelihood of penetrating interior walls and potentially hitting a loved one.

    Then there is also the zombie factor which in itself is nearly enough reason that we should all have a Saiga!!

    One big factor w/ kids is to eliminate the mystery. My boys have shot everything they have shown an interest in. There is no mystery to any of my guns. I can leave a rifle on the cleaning stand on the dining table and they never lay a hand on it. (**bolt is always removed)

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    There is no substitute for educating your kids at the earliest possible age, that guns are cool, useful, and a cultural right, but that if handled incorrectly can kill. A have several guns in my house which are always loaded. They do not have locks on them, nor are they locked away. My youngest son and my grandsons have been educated from toddlerhood that they may not so much as even go near these guns or any other guns in my home (or anyone else's home) unless it is with an adult or it is out in the field or range.
    Obviously, one must take age into account, store them high but conveniently. But educate, educate, educate as to proper handling of all guns. Get them toy guns and have them role play as if they were real. Get them their own real gun as young as possible and educate them some more.

    We try to make everything safe in our society. Accidents happen but generally it is far more common with ignorant people than with educated people.

    pretty much sums us up also.. that and my kids have their own guns, so that helps. they all know absolutely one rule, none come out of the cabinet with out permission, and NONE ever come out when guest of any age are here, no matter how badly they want to show it to them... ( with out permission)we go through a safety check before and after, when adult friends are here, as all my friends have similar rules...

    i touched of my dads pistols once, in the truck at about age 7, he threatened to break both my ands on a rock with the gun but.. kinda stuck with me the rest of my life.. i feel that any parent should teach their kids proper safety, and if any rule is broken, it should be dwelt with Immediately, and strongly. get the point across even if it means a busted but...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member big_dog60's Avatar
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    I understand about education and beleive me my children will be educated. But there is more to consider then just that. Some times children do things they know they shouldn't. There is also the possibility that there may be other children around the house, and I am sure we all know how children can be when there is a group. Now granted this is not going to happen without adults in the house but I want to make things as safe as possible and still be functional.

    I debated about theammo thing but wasn't sure if leaving it unloaded would take too much time to ready the gun if needed.
    I was thinking about using 6 shot and loading the tube and having a closed empty chamber.
    So if need arised I could stand on the bed grab the shot gun off the rack and release the slide and safty and crank a round in.
    On the shot gun in question it would only take a few seconds.

    I am planning on using a mosberg 12 guage that both my wife and I are familiar with.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Told my kids not to touch but that was in the spanking days.It worked and kids turned out all right,works on grandkids also
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    1911 cocked and locked in the quick access safe in my drawer, and an 870 and AR 5 buttons away in the digital combo safe. I don't care how educated my kids are, and I even test them by leaving unloaded guns laying around, curiosity will get them sooner or later, or they will try to test the limits. If not they will have a friend over and then I'm liable for whatever they do with my guns they have access to. Most likely nothing would ever happen, but I won't gamble no matter what the odds.
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    Member big_dog60's Avatar
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    I agree and think it is good to have at least 2 levels of safty. Education would be level 1, out of reach or some thing similar would be level 2.

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    I have no children, but I was raised in a home with guns around all the time. I can speak from my own experiences as a child, and trust me, no matter how much you teach your kids about firearm safety, they are still kids. When they they are old enough to reach that shotgun, or old enough to pile stuff up and reach it, they will. If they see you manipulate the safety and the slide release, they will know enough to figure it out for themselves.

    Honestly, I would put a GOOD trigger-lock on the shotty, keep the key on a necklace for your wife, or chain for you, and I bet with a little practice you could open the trigger-lock just as fast as you could retrieve the gun near the ceiling.

    Just wanted to throw the idea out there,
    Best Wishes
    -J

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Invest in a keypad or biometric safe, or in the case of the long gun a trigger lock. No keys, just punch in the code and go.

    Condition 2 for sure on the shotgun (magazine loaded, chamber empty, hammer down, safety on, forend loose). Not a gun to ever keep one in the chamber and they take way too long to load if you have nothing in the magazine. It would be worthless for home defense if you have to hunt down shells and load the gun first.

    One thing about shotguns and kids... firearm safety eductation for sure, but also take them to the shooting range and load up some full horsepower buckshot. An old watermelon from the grocery store's heading-to-the-dumpster bin is the best, but a milk jug filled with some dyed water will do. Proper hearing protection of course, but when the kids see what the shotgun does to the "exploding" target at short range, they will not have any interest in actually shooting it themselves.

    My dad showed me the power of the 12g when I was a youngster and in my mind's eye I can still see that block of firewood laid on end getting split into 2 pieces by the slug he put into it in the backyard to demonstrate the power of that gun. I had zero interest in even attempting to shoot a 12g for several years afterward.

    Wanna make a bigger impression, hold the gun fairly limp with a loose shoulder fit. Show them the bruise when you get back to the house.
    Winter is Coming...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    One big factor w/ kids is to eliminate the mystery.
    Good point. I've drilled it into my kid that if he wants to see one of my guns (or his) all he has to do is ask. No mystery and no reason to try it behind my back when Dad gladly gets them down at the asking. I also take him shooting any time he has an interest. He's also seen me take game in the field and clobber targets at the range so he understands the power associated with firearms.

    I've also drilled it into him from toddlerhood- "Never Touch a Gun Without Dad". Any gun. Anywhere. Period.

    I figured education was the better route as the world is chock full of guns and I only control so many of them.

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    Things change. That is an immutable fact. But seems I've heard somewhere that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Kids are just like kids of yesterday and when I was a kid touching firearms without supervision was not a consideration. This is not to say there were not opportunities. I grew up with firearms above every door, in most corners of each room and in practically everyone's sock drawer. A firearm was considered "locked up" when the sliding glass door was latched on the gun cabinet. This wasn't just at our house, but most homes of my youth.

    Among the reasons that kept my small fingers at bay was the reality that if I were to touch one without supervision, I'd never touch another; NEVER. I also knew that mom, dad, and other figures in authority were not bluffing on this point. That was only slightly more compelling than the fact that anytime I desired to handle or use a firearm properly I was not denied the opportunity. All I needed to do was ask. There was nothing to guess about and very little mystery as I had full access, with supervision, to firearms from my earliest memories.

    I believe this method is still more than sufficient for my home and its occupants, but in our litigious society that is filled with undisciplined citizens I keep firearms under direct supervision at all times--either on my person or the safe.
    Foolishness is a moral category, not an intellectual one.

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    This is a tough topic! Why should firearm safety be any different than teaching them not to play in the street, not to stick stuff into electrical outlets, not walk on thin ice(that one scares the crap out of me in regards to little kids) or any number of other things. The same principals apply..... if you do it, (as my grandson puts it) you could get dead! But it is different! It's a firearm and that just puts a stigma on it that makes it in a class of its own when it comes to safety and little kids.

    I raised 4 kids and they all knew that there was a loaded pistol in dad's underwear drawer at night and on his side during the day. They all also knew that there was nothing on the face of this earth that was more off limits than dads guns. The tone of my voice was turned to maximum serious when we talked about gun rules. When my son, the youngest was in high school and the only one left at home the gun came out of the drawer and laid on my dresser. One day I was home sick and was sitting on the throne and more than likely memorizing a reloading manual in the process. I heard my son and a friend come in the house, they were on their way to basketball practice and my son was fresh out of white socks so the most obvious place to go was to dad's dresser. I heard the friend say cool....I want to look at your dads gun. My son said (in the same tone of voice that he heard it in) "that's my dad's and I don't touch it and your not going to either." I told him later that I was proud of him!

    The case for a nephew from Comi-fornia is totally different! I wouldn't trust that kid any further than I can throw him! He's never been told no and if he has he ignored it. He has come to visit a time or two and hopefully never again, but when he does my guns are locked up tighter than Ft Knox.

    The Bible say the beginning of wisdom is fearing the Lord. I don't mean to make mockery of that what-so-ever, but the the beginning of wisdom in relation to guns ought to be fearing pappy and pappy has no choice but to be prudent in his rendering a warming of the backside if needed! I know....we can't spank our kids. I did(all 4 of them...repeatedly) and they all love me for it and so does my little grandson, he just doesn't know it yet!

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    A unloaded gun is a rock and long ago I can remember looking but not touching like I was told.Kids will be kids as parents will be parents,just a matter of learning correct respect.JMHO
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    There is no substitute for educating your kids at the earliest possible age, that guns are cool, useful, and a cultural right, but that if handled incorrectly can kill. A have several guns in my house which are always loaded. They do not have locks on them, nor are they locked away. My youngest son and my grandsons have been educated from toddlerhood that they may not so much as even go near these guns or any other guns in my home (or anyone else's home) unless it is with an adult or it is out in the field or range.
    Obviously, one must take age into account, store them high but conveniently. But educate, educate, educate as to proper handling of all guns. Get them toy guns and have them role play as if they were real. Get them their own real gun as young as possible and educate them some more.

    We try to make everything safe in our society. Accidents happen but generally it is far more common with ignorant people than with educated people.

    Best advice. If people show the guns to the kids and when they are old enough let them shot it in a controlled environment they will learn to respect the gun. Most kids even lose interest in it somewhat to the point they will not want to play with guns. IMO all kids above the age of 10 should be required to take a gun safety course even if their parents do not like guns. Teaches them to respect them for what they are...... A tool

  17. #17
    Member big_dog60's Avatar
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    Education is a given and some good Ideas have been thrown out, but I don't leave dangerus chemicals lying around no matter how much I educate I still came in one day and my boy was tipping back the dish detergent. That was a harmless insident, but things could be worse and things like that are why I try to have at least 2 levels of safty on all dangerous items.

    The key pad lock seems like a good idea i may have to save up some money and check them out.

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    Educate your kids on weapons. But buy a digital lock box or small digital safe you can keep by your bed, something that is secure but quiet to open. Then, buy a Glock 21 45 ACP and load it with 230 gr. +P gold dot's. Like someone already said after you teach your kids you could trust them but what about the other kids that come over. Just a suggestion!

    Chris

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    If you do get a small keypad vault then do some research. Most of them have to be mounted to something in order to be even mildly secure.



    I think my kids would be more likely to pick up a gun if they knocked a "box" off the nightstand in my room and the gun came flying out. The fact that they knocked something over may tempt them to "fix it" before they get in trouble...

  20. #20

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    big dog60,

    Be aware of the laws. I am not up there yet (spring 2011), but in TN there is a "no child access" requirement placed on the owner. Not sure about AK...yet.

    Here are my other thoughts, FWIW:

    Handguns: Think about a GunVault for child-security and your rapid access. Also, if you are experienced (and I mean a lot of experience so reaction is non-thinking muscle memory) with a semi-auto, go with what you know and are familiar with. I prefer my semi-auto 45 with safety off and a round chambered because only I touch it and I have 30+ years with semi autos. If you are not that familiar with a semi-auto, go with a revolver, at least 357 Mag, and make sure the beloved can use it too. Revolvers take less thought in "oh crap" moments for those who are good people, but have little recent and frequent experience with a semi-auto. If the wife cannot use a 357 mag then move down to what she can use.

    Shotgun: Most any gauge will do. Besides education with your children (extraordinarily important), I personally don't know of a fairly rapid access child-blocking device. They're probably out there but I don't know about them. The shotgun is the ultimate family protection home defense weapon because it's effective and you do not need to be pinpoint accurate. Also, it is an attention getter.

    The wife: Easily the most important consideration as she, hopefully, should be with you for life. Please make sure that she is fully on board with whatever you decide. Also, make sure she is competent at accessing the selected firearm and comfortable using it.

    The kids: As for a 12 gauge and leaving the chamber empty, as stated on post #1, unless the kids are really small then this will have little deterrent if they are adventurous and inquisitive. During childhood non-compliance is a normal part of the growth process...(former psychiatric nurse writing this). You know your kids the best but please don't underestimate normal childhood mental maturation and developmental .

    Practice: Not optional. Frequent training is good...turn it into a husband and wife monthly event and make it a pleasant event so she looks forward to it.

    Ok, long response. I hope I had something of value to add.

    AJ

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