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Thread: Roll Crimp Q

  1. #1

    Default Roll Crimp Q

    Dumb newb question alert
    I have the RCBS carbide dies that have a roll crimp in the seating die. How do I crimp a 158gr plated .38 bullet with no cannalure? All info I have read says nothing about crimping without a cannalure. Thanks in advance for any help.

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    Don't (Crimp) (That Bullet)

    What I've read is, that a bullet without a crimping groove, should not be crimped. Which, I think makes sense.

    Adjust the body of the die so the crimping shoulder doesn't touch the end of the case, when the Ram is all the way up, then adjust your seating stem, for seating depth.

    Smitty of the North
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    Plated bullets crimp very easily if you want to. Crimping is not necessary on 38 load as the recoil/bullet weight should not cause bullets to creep. I would adjust the crimp so it just straightens out the belled mouth of the case and either doesn't crimp at all or just lightly crimps. If you don't straighten out the belled mouth, you can end up with rounds that won't chamber. You can even crimp a jacketed bullet without a cannalure groove to some degree if you want. If you crimp to much it will cause the case to bulge just below the crimp and cause it not to chamber. If it can be done wrong, I have done it. I started reloading before we had the net and I learned from loading manuals and by trial and error. Lots of errror. The only question that is dumb is the one to which you already know the answer.

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    Thanks smitty and rbuck. Good info.
    I will need the case to touch the crimpin groove to reset the bell, right?

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    Once you have sized, belled, primed and powdered the case you should at least straighten out the belled mouth. You can use an empty case for adjusting the amount of crimp or bell removal. Just bell an empty and run it to the top of the ram stroke. Then screw the crimp die down until you feel resistance. Back down the ram and screw the crimp die down about 1/16 turn at a time until the bell has been straightened out or a little farther if you want some crimp. Lock the die lock ring and adjust the seat depth by trial and lock the seat stem. This may sound a little complicated at first but it really isn't. I have a standing offer to show new loaders the whole process at my home in Chugiak. If we can't get you fixed up on the net feel free to PM and we can set up a show and tell.

  6. #6

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    Wow, rbuck, I don't know what to say. I will take you up on that offer.
    I just loaded 25 158gr plated bullets with 5grs unique. I'm gonna shoot them tomorrow, so I will let you know how it goes.
    Thanks for the education, it was uncommonly helpful.
    PM sent

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    I should add that I'm unfamiliar with "plated bullets". I thought they were like jacketed bullets.

    I don't bell the mouth of a case when sizing them for jacketed bullets.

    Smitty of the North
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    Quote Originally Posted by tailwind View Post
    Dumb newb question alert
    I have the RCBS carbide dies that have a roll crimp in the seating die. How do I crimp a 158gr plated .38 bullet with no cannalure? All info I have read says nothing about crimping without a cannalure. Thanks in advance for any help.
    I bought the Lee factory crimp dies for all my loads. Suppose to make the canti on non canteed bullets. Works for me when half the 44 bullets you can get in AK are non canteed. Been watching the Sportsmans shelf for lead bullets for 8 months now and the slot is still empy. I can buy non cantee loads up my butt but don't want em just yet but may have to give in for some target loads by spring.
    Wheel weights are good for doing your own bullets, but will the tire shops even sell em anymore at areasonable price?
    I can do the impossible right away. Be patient, miracles take me a bit longer.

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    Smitty: plated bullets are lead bullets that have been electro plated and have a very thin plating of copper over them. They are very easy to crimp as the thin copper shell collapses very easily into the lead. Jacketed bullets have a much thicker covering and sometimes crimping into them doesn't work well. Belling the necks for jacketed bullet is not necessary as the jacket is rounded slightly on the base and starts in the case easily. Cast bullets and plated bullets crush much easier and the cast unless it is a bevel base has very sharp edges that catch on the mouth of the case. Although it is not necessary to bell the cases with jacketed and usually not with plated, it makes it much easier to align the bullet for seating and helps prevent scraping the side of the cast or sometimes even the plated bullet. I bell all my pistol cases as I shoot very few jacketed pistol rounds. Also cast bullets are normally 1 or 2 thousands larger than jacketed making them even harder to start in a case that has not been belled. GrizzlyH : I have never used the Lee Factory Crimp die but I have heard that it will crimp anything even to the point of shrinking cast bullets. Cast bullets need to be a little oversize to make sure they fill the bore/grooves and completely seal the bore or leading will happen. Yeah, wheel weights are getting harder to find and no longer real cheap. They do make very good bullets though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tailwind View Post
    Thanks smitty and rbuck. Good info.
    I will need the case to touch the crimpin groove to reset the bell, right?
    Please don't be offended if I correct your terminology. I am pretty sure what you mean is "to touch the crimping shoulder" inside the die. A "crimping groove" is on the bullet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I should add that I'm unfamiliar with "plated bullets". I thought they were like jacketed bullets.

    I don't bell the mouth of a case when sizing them for jacketed bullets.

    Smitty of the North
    As I understand it, plated bullets are to be loaded as cast bullets.

    However, there is one thing to be cautious about. If you crimp into the side of the bullet, you can cut the (thin) plating and then the copper plating (I am told) can separate from the lead core. If the plating remains in your barrel, that could be bad news.

    The way to crimp a plated bullet, then, would be to seat the bullet deep enough into the case that the case mouth would roll over the bullet's ogive. But be sure the overall length is not too short at this point (as seating deeper reduces the case volume and thus, increases pressure).

    Lost Sheep

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  11. #11

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    Sheep, I am deeply offended. How dare you!

    Thanks for all the help guys, excellent info here.

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    I also use the Lee factory crimping dies for all of my handgun reloading, and it has worked very well for me. I use it on my Dillon progressive when loading a boat load of 45ACP or 10mm (FMJ's without a cannelure), and I use it when loading single stage on my RCBS for 44mag and 454Casull (lead cast/gas check's).

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    To clarify, if needed???

    Belling the mouth of the case is to spread it slightly, so bullets will seat easier.

    The crimping shoulder is inside the die, and squeezes the mouth of the neck when, or after, the bullet is seated, depending on how you wanna do it.

    I appreciate the info on "plated bullets". I began to think they were something like what has been described.

    I use cast bullets for revolver cartridges, 38 Special, .357, and 44 Mag. and I bell the mouths on those straight sided cases, and also Crimp.

    I highly reccommend the Lee Factory Crimp dies, both for those rounds, and for any rifle cartridge that I need or want to crimp.

    I note, that there are at least 3, and possibly 4, different kinds of Lee Factory Crimp dies, (see their catalog, and they don't all work the same.

    I use the ones for Rifle Cartridges, and the ones for Straight Sided revolver cartridges, (Roll Crimp). What I like about them is that they can be used optionally, after the round is loaded.

    I don't load Auto cartridges, and have not tried the one for a Taper Crimp.

    Something I've been doing recently is loading Cast bullets in rifle cartridges, 4 different ones, and seating Cast Gas Checked bullets WITHOUT belling the case mouths. It works pretty good most of the time, anyway.

    As to crimping a jacketed bullet that doesn't have a crimp groove, I don't EVER do that. I know that Some People DO, but I'm not ready to accept that it's a good idea. Perhaps, just as, I'm sure that many will not easily accept the idea of seating Gas Checked Cast Bullets without Belling the mouths.

    I think that if you bell the mouths, you are also needing to crimp them after the bullet is seated, (As rbuck351 says, at least enough to straighten them out. Which, is one reason why I don't currently bell the case mouths on the Rifle Cartridges, using cast bullets. Another reason, is I'm getting away with not doing it.

    Thanks
    Smitty of the North
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    Smitty: I pretty much agree with all you said. As normal there are a few exceptions. I don't bell the necks on rifle cases except for 25/20, 32/20 and 22H. I find I lose a lot of cases if I don't use an "M" die to expand the neck larger than normal and I also bell those three slightly as their necks are very thin and collapse very easily. I do very little crimping even on pistol/revolver loads as I have never had a problem with bullets pulling from recoil. I do bell on pistol/revolver cases when using plain base cast bullets just enough to prevent lead shaving while seating a bullet. Also while using gas check with pistol, but only because I dont want to readjust the crimp die. With the exception of the 3 three mentioned I don't bell or crimp any rifle cases. I don't like a lot of bell or crimp as it is hard on the case mouth and will cause split mouths after a few loads. I also don't think is a real good idea to crimp non grooved rifle bullets. 1. it's not needed and 2. it can collapse case shoulders. I don't crimp jacketed in handgun cases as I don't shoot jacketed in handguns. Anyway, I think crimping is overrated and don't crimp much.

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    Thanks rbuck351:

    I have an M die. I should probably try using it for my rifle cast bullet loads, again. If I could get only a very slight bell, it might make bullet seating easier.

    Smitty of the North
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    Smitty:
    If you don't like belling, and I don't on rifle cases, an agressive couple of twists with the inside neck burring tool and an M die usually works very well. Belling works too, but it requires just the right amount of crimp to just remove. I'm a little more picky on rifle loads than handgun as I expect to be able to hit things a bit farther out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Smitty:
    If you don't like belling, and I don't on rifle cases, an agressive couple of twists with the inside neck burring tool and an M die usually works very well. Belling works too, but it requires just the right amount of crimp to just remove. I'm a little more picky on rifle loads than handgun as I expect to be able to hit things a bit farther out.
    I'm not sure I understand.

    I don't have an "inside neck deburring tool".

    Are you suggesting to twist the M die around on the neck?

    Smitty of the North
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    No, they make a tool for deburing the inside and outside of the case mouth. One end looks like a counter sink for seating wood screws or about a 60degree tapered reamer. It's for knocking the sharp edge off the case mouth and removing any burrs. A couple of twists in the neck puts a little taper inside the neck and helps cast bullets start and seat without having to bell. It also helps keep the sharp inside edge of the neck from shaving lead while seating a cast bullet. The other end goes over the outside of the neck to remove the small ridge left by trimming the necks. Most of the companies that sell reloading stuff make one.

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    Grizzly H There is a gentleman by the last name of Stoner. He is here in Wasilla and has cast bullets for everything. He is usually at the gun shows and will most likely be at the one here in Wasilla on the 15th. If not look him up on in the phone book and give him a call. I think 3 Bears carries some of his stuff also. I have shot a lot of his 45 lead for cowboy action and it shoots well. If you just can't find him PM me and I'll look up the info for you. Hope this helps.
    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyH View Post
    I bought the Lee factory crimp dies for all my loads. Suppose to make the canti on non canteed bullets. Works for me when half the 44 bullets you can get in AK are non canteed. Been watching the Sportsmans shelf for lead bullets for 8 months now and the slot is still empy. I can buy non cantee loads up my butt but don't want em just yet but may have to give in for some target loads by spring.
    Wheel weights are good for doing your own bullets, but will the tire shops even sell em anymore at areasonable price?

  20. #20

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    Thanks for all the great info here. I loaded up my first 25 bullets. 158gr plated FP over 5gr unique. They were a potent little round in my S&W 637 airweight, but manageable. My first load was a success. I was stoked.
    I am gonna load up some plinking rounds now, I'm thinking 4.2 gr unique under the same plated bullet. Is there any danger of bullets not making it out of the barrel with this load? My manual has no plated data, and lists jacketed ammo as DNR(do not reduce) loads, so I'm reluctant with low pressure. Any thoughts?
    Anyone know where to find a good selection of bullets in town, sportsmans was bare shelves. I would like a 160gr FP or SP.

    Thanks Rbuck, Smitty, Griz and sheep. You guys are great.

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