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Thread: How often do you find bullet fragments in your hamburger?

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    Default How often do you find bullet fragments in your hamburger?

    I was pondering bullet selection with a friend a few nights ago and the topic of lead vs copper bullets was discussed again. One point is not to have lead fragments in your meat. If the copper bullets shoot well and kill well, there is a good argument for using them just for health reasons. Just tonight, I was eating some moose sausage and bit into a small chunk of copper. At first I thought it was a bone chip, and then was worried it was a piece of my tooth. Nope, just a piece of a Barnes 180g .308 ttsx. That got me thinking again about bullet selection.

    My question is, how often do you find bullet pieces in your game meat? I assume it is there because many bullets lose 10-40% of their mass. It has to go some place.

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    Member GrizzlyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    I was pondering bullet selection with a friend a few nights ago and the topic of lead vs copper bullets was discussed again. One point is not to have lead fragments in your meat. If the copper bullets shoot well and kill well, there is a good argument for using them just for health reasons. Just tonight, I was eating some moose sausage and bit into a small chunk of copper. At first I thought it was a bone chip, and then was worried it was a piece of my tooth. Nope, just a piece of a Barnes 180g .308 ttsx. That got me thinking again about bullet selection.

    My question is, how often do you find bullet pieces in your game meat? I assume it is there because many bullets lose 10-40% of their mass. It has to go some place.
    Barnes ttsx's are suppose to hold together better than most, but if you get a heavy bone hit, I imagin even those could frag a bit.
    I can do the impossible right away. Be patient, miracles take me a bit longer.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    My question is, how often do you find bullet pieces in your game meat? I assume it is there because many bullets lose 10-40% of their mass. It has to go some place.
    It has to go somewhere is absolutely right. That's a little bit of reality most folks choose to ignore. You would be very surprised how far from the wound channel micro fragments of lead travel into the animal. There have been a couple of studies done where numerous animals were shot and then x-rayed... It's an eye opener.

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    Member broncoformudv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    It has to go somewhere is absolutely right. That's a little bit of reality most folks choose to ignore. You would be very surprised how far from the wound channel micro fragments of lead travel into the animal. There have been a couple of studies done where numerous animals were shot and then x-rayed... It's an eye opener.
    You are correct in there is no telling where a bullet much less a bullet fragment will go once it enters an animal or human. Testing on mediums only tell you so much but live data is the real deal. In the end bullets do what they want to do we just hope its the same thing we want done.

    Back to the question. I have been eating wild game most of my life and have never found any bullet fragments in my burger or anything else made from big game but have bitten down on my share of pellets in upland game birds and ducks. Guess that means you better chew your food properly if you are worried about lead toxicity.

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    Member bilbo's Avatar
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    the only lead/bullets frags were when eating waterfowl or pheasant/dove.
    these were all lead.
    no worry. tiny thing in life's course.

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    I doubt its 'Fragments' at all, from the sounds of it......you fellas are all biting fragments that are in meat that was Ground up, so Im thinking the whole bullet went into the process and its now 'pieces'......seen it before, even a hand grinder will shred a .30 cal bullet.

    Lead shot flew further, hit harder and when bit into, was not a Tooth buster..................Frikkin' hate steel shot........
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

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    The only "pieces" I have found were the bullet in tact. It was mushroomed out but oultherwise in tact. I have found one in a moose, and 2 in my bison. I shot a .300 win mag factory load federal NP 180 grain. Never found and fragments in anything.
    Hunt until you don't like it any more

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    Did you grind the meat yourself or have it done? It may not even be your bullet if you had it done at a butcher shop.

    Never found bullet fragments in any meat I've had.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    dang i find bullet fragments all the time.. i find .22 and shot in moose when i butcher them, espessally ones shot near town.. pisses me off every time too... the one my daughter shot this year had a .22 and air gun pellets, and bird shot in its rear... musta been in some gardens..
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    I've never found bullet fragments in big game. Plenty of shot in upland game but nothing resembling a bullet fragment.

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    We process all of our own meat and have never found 'unwanted' fragments in it.

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    Like Stranger said....
    One time I had a caribou made into sausage and teriyaki sticks, and was not pleased that much of it had ground up bullit fragments throughout it. Not good at the office Christmas "pot luck".

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    Found bullets and parts upon skinning out animals, but have never found fragments in anything once it was processed (other than small game, and then very few times). We process everything ourselves. I make a point to follow the bullet path, and to look for any lead frags. Don't find things 100% of the time, but it always worth the effort.

    Good article: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_600488.html

    I like this line:
    "Likewise, the National Shooting Sports Foundation said attempts to ban lead ammunition are driven by an animal rights agenda, not science."

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    Remember that lead bullet fragment scare that started all this scare was a very skewed study done by a Bismarck ND Dr. with strong ties to animal rights/anti-gun groups. He has since recanted much of his "findings". Also remember that the antis will attack obliquely, if they can't get our seasons or our guns, they will try to get our ammunition, or at least try to make it so expensive that it's cost prohibitive to shoot & hunt...

    On that note, I grew up on game meat in the 60's-70's and it comprises probably 80% of my meat intake to this day (I'm 53). In those days used to come across lead pellets in birds & small game, simply spit them out. Now we use a small metal detector to find & remove steel shot from ducks & pheasants and rarely miss any that is found later when preparing or eating the meat. Deer & goats, not too tough to find & cut out bullet fragments along the damage path when boning it out. Careful shot placement and using bonded bullets like Accubonds & Interbonds which hold together well & usually pass through means fragments are rare. THe worst case I can recall was when I had to butt shoot a wounded buck for my wife to put it down at maybe 20-30 yards with a 7MM RUM. That fast stepping 160 grainer literally blew up on impact & ruined most of both hams...

    If I ingested any in my youth it doesn't seem to have effected my physical growth/fitness or learning abilities. Was a three sport athlete in HS, two sport in college, Have an attic full of athletic, shooting, & archery trophies, nearly thirty years of LE time on the street, a 4.0 GPA getting an AA in Crim Justice, and a sniper school certificate. I suspect lead based paint & asbestos commonly used in buidlings then was a far greater health hazard...

    Frankly, I'll quit shooting & loading lead bullets and eating game killed with it when I have absolutely no other alternative. I'm guessing I'll be dead & gone by the time that day comes...

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    if you cutt and processed the game youre self. then it most likely came from youre bullet, but could have also came from someone elses shot. I had worked in a meat locker for several years in the lower 48, we took in deer and elk every day of the week from the begining season till its close, other speices alos came in frequently like antelope, sheep, moose, bear, goat and bison along with all the domestics that came in we butcher and killed. Now after working 7 years in the related field, you will never see a bullet, everthing is electricuted or stunded to death, thats how everything FDA inspected has to get killed. All the game that came in all those years gave me a perspective on meat care, it is sad the lack of care of some, the first time killers and uneducated or unexcperianced hunters seamed to try but ive seen it all folks, green and molded meat to intrails atatched for days and hide left on in 80 degree weather,yet people still ate it or so they said, some would use it as dog food which for the sole purpose of hunting seams like a waste and is ileagle in most placces. the biggest problem was folks comeing in and being upset that what they got all fit in a

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    if you cutt and processed the game youre self. then it most likely came from youre bullet, but could have also came from someone elses shot. I had worked in a meat locker for several years in the lower 48, we took in deer and elk every day of the week from the begining season till its close, other speices came in frequently like antelope, sheep, moose, bear, goat and bison along with all the domestics that came in we butcher and killed. Now after working 7 years in the related field, you wont see a bullet in domestics, everthing is electricuted or stunded to death, thats how everything FDA inspected has to get killed. All the game that came in for years gave me a perspective on meat care. Its is sad to see the lack of care of some, the first time killers and under educated or unexcperianced hunters seamed to try but ive seen it all folks, green and molded meat to intrails atatched for days and hide left on in 80 degree weather,yet people still ate it or so they said, some would use it as dog food which for the sole purpose of hunting seams like a waste and is a ticket in most placces. the biggest complaint was folks comeing in and being upset, that what they got all fit in a little box, and it couldnt have been thiers. im not gana say it has never happened because it probaly has before, but we always taged every animal and made sure that the same one made its way to the owner. as a hunter i took it very personal, and i think that it was that attitude that we all had, is what kept us busy. ive seen quite a few bullets come in, it was a common thing, on a daily basis. i would say 8 out of 10 times they were mushroomed out, or split. it was far more rare to see them blow up unless it hit a bone, then there would be more pieces, exspecialy when it was a light gain bullet. muzzle loaders and .50 cal bullets usauly we the most intack, but the common 22 and buck shoot were far to common, meaning someone was pestering game at one piont. i have even seen a doe come in with a arrow under the hide and fussed into the spine from either the year before or prior to that. it was not infected but the broad head was rusting and causeing the animal pain, when i asked the guy about it he said he was in a stand and this doe came along that would not cross a fence or log for any reason, she went to every open section that didnt require her to jump, which made sense to both of us after the kill. thing is with all the meat that we cutt and ground, im sure some one got a peice at on time but it was at least most likely their bullet.
    Just remember, for anyone grinding youre meat check the plate,(disc with the size holes) remove and checked it often, listen to the motor and when it sounds stressed it may be a fragment hiting the plate and blade. this wont hapen for someone with a industrial or high power grinder, that will just run it on out bone bullet and all. Even seen one get a human arm once but thats a different story all together. if you cutt it be cautious of what you do to aviod this problem anywhere there is a shot placement look closely, if you bring it in try boneing it youre self or just do youre grind there, bring it in cleaned boned and frozen or in a cooler, depending on what the cutters will take, we did both. this way its all on you and know whats there, and decide then on adding beef fat, or makeing suasage... sticks...( try adding bacon at home if you like bacon moose burgers,MM). Keep in mind there can always be a fragment from the grind before if the plate isnt taken off often and checked, this is the only way a it ends up in youre product, and every processor should follow this practice if they want youre bussiness. Ive seen a ink pen end up in a gind, plastic, metal shaveings or metal parts, a glove and ive also seen that same grind get tossed out because it, hundred of $ worth. i take care of my own cutting, and take good care of my field cared meat, i know what im eat, but im not afaid to eat a piece of lead? there are far worse things that end up in youre food at the store! LOL ....... think about it?.....................ewh!

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    Member pinehavensredrocket's Avatar
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    i have never found bullet fragments in my hamburger......ever.
    happy trails.
    jh

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    Thanks for the replies. A clarification on the moose. There were no other bullets or old scars from shots that were found when skinning it. The moose was a one shot kill and pass through. The bullet hit the spine and did fragment. There were two small exit holes about 8-12 inches below the spine in the rib cage. I remember asking my hunting partner if he shot too and he said no. We concluded the bullet lost some petals and they ricocheted down and out. Maybe some were lodged in the slat meat? It was a very small piece.

    I saw the video from that Dr. dude advocating copper bullets. He made a convincing argument with the x-ray studies, especially of the hamburger. I have not read any articles about him refuting his own research and would love to see it. I was a bit skeptical about his findings since he is the only one publishing it. Something that easy would or should have been done long ago and is easily reproduced. Good science experiments are reproducible in other labs. Does anybody have any more data on this guy or any other "experiments" that confirm or deny his findings?

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    Our grinder was acting sluggish so we took the plate of to clean it and found a nice piece of polished lead! I guess we got some shavings of it. Oh well, probably not as much lead as I intake from biting on split shot!

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Thanks for the replies. A clarification on the moose. There were no other bullets or old scars from shots that were found when skinning it. The moose was a one shot kill and pass through. The bullet hit the spine and did fragment. There were two small exit holes about 8-12 inches below the spine in the rib cage. I remember asking my hunting partner if he shot too and he said no. We concluded the bullet lost some petals and they ricocheted down and out. Maybe some were lodged in the slat meat? It was a very small piece.

    I saw the video from that Dr. dude advocating copper bullets. He made a convincing argument with the x-ray studies, especially of the hamburger. I have not read any articles about him refuting his own research and would love to see it. I was a bit skeptical about his findings since he is the only one publishing it. Something that easy would or should have been done long ago and is easily reproduced. Good science experiments are reproducible in other labs. Does anybody have any more data on this guy or any other "experiments" that confirm or deny his findings?
    Ok, here's a few:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/.../fulltext.html


    http://www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?A=2700&Q=452732


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/


    There have been several of these studies done over the years. The lesson I take from them is that lead contamination is virtually unavoidable when using lead bullets. Everyone needs to make their own choice about whether or not they want to use and therefore consume lead. I don't think it's some big conspiracy by the dreaded "anti's". Believe what you wish and act accordingly...
    ...he who knows nothing is nearer to truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods & errors. ~Thomas Jefferson
    I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief. ~Gerry Spence
    The last thing Alaska needs is another bigot. ~member Catch It
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