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Thread: Rests: capture versus fall-away, general considerations...

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    Member 6XLeech's Avatar
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    Default Rests: capture versus fall-away, general considerations...

    A Forums member in another thread (http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...982#post857982) got me thinking about my arrow rest. New to archery and with zero experience bowhunting yet, most of my bowhunting is learning and planning. The pros/cons of different arrow rest designs are interesting and knowing general characteristics to look for can be helpful. What good or bad characteristics of each type rest do you consider when choosing one type rest over the other. What does each type do well, or not so well?

    Good, short, basic intro article:
    http://www.fieldandstream.com/node/57017

    Good Forums discussion: http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...Fall-Away-rest. Excellent points made by jmg (post#6: capture-type could offer advantage for stalking) and AKDoug (post #7: freezing is just BAD for bows! Read "I once did a test...")

    Short of the only perfect answer (see Vince's post#20 in the above thread), what performance characteristics might one consider when choosing capture versus fall-away designs for Alaska? What traits matter when considering each design for bowhunting in Alaska?

    Design parameters for bowhunting in Alaska:
    1. Simplicity is best.
    2. Moving parts can fail.
    3. Poorly made parts can fail.
    4. Alaskan bowhunts more often than not require considerable investments of money, time, travel, etc; therefore the shot opportunities are valuable.
    5. Alaskan bowhunt conditions to consider include: wet (dew on willows, etc or rain/snow); freezing temps; long hikes with gear)

    Example: Although my bow (a gift) came equipped with an Octane Hostage Pro and the rationale for this piece of equipment made sense to me, another Forums member pointed out some things to consider in the poor reviews by Cabela's customers who purchased this rest (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Octane-Hostage-Pro-Rest-from-Diamond/728841.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2 Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fs ch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dhostage%2Bpr o%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=hostage+pro). Most (32/51) comments were either 1-star (12) or 5-stars (20) ratings. Although the 5 star reviewers were enthusiastic, the 1 star reviewer comments were troublesome too, describing brush durability problems and adjustment mechanism hardware failures - important potential weaknesses of this rest. I haven't had those problems yet, but the points are good ones to consider and I will watch for them.

    Finally, quoting AKDoug: "I'm a big proponent of shooting what you are comfortable with. I happen to shoot a WB, but I'd never tell anyone to get rid of their drop-away to get one".

    Choose what you like to meet your particular performance requirments, but what things should one consider generally when considering either type rest?

    Here's my list:
    1. Good: Capture type rests are simple designs which is good, minimizing the risk of in-the-field mechanical failure, but ...
    2. Bad: Capture-type brushes may freeze if the brushes get wet - and full capture type rests would fail. (Or not? See AKDoug's "I once did a test...")
    3. Good: Drop-away rests offer many advantages - which contribute to accuracy by avoiding contact interference with the arrow, but...
    4. Bad: Drop away rests are more mechanically complex and so vulnerable.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    well thats quite a lot of info.. for only two styles of rest..

    but in short.

    I like the WB,, have used it for a long time... and there is one on each of my kids bows.. but no longer on mine.


    in short i think i just grew out of it as an archer... i use now a drop away. the difference in my shooting style ( for the better) as well an increase in effective range.. ( always better) is absolutely noticeable to me..

    the WB or containment, well i guess it allows for enough of the less detrimental habits of form... where the drop away your on top of it or your NOT

    it is kind of hard to fully explain in this form.. but i have become a better shooter since switching to the drop away, and i did so for an entirely different reason.. i wanted to shoot fobs, and can not with any other rest.

    i now pick up vaned, or FOB'd arrows and launch then downrange....

    both styles of rest have issues pros and cons... maintenance of your equipment takes care of most of them..
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

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    i tried to get the best of both worlds by going with the rip cord granted i still havent shot it yet because i still havent got my new bow in yet but there are some things that can possibly fail the launch arm and containment bar are some kind of plastic like pellican cases are made of and there is a small spring inside that could fail but in talking to bill at north pole archery who has ran an archery shop for 20+ years he has only ever seen one fail and it was due to that spring so it did not drop the arm. there is lots of good info in this forum but it still took me a couple weeks to figure out exactly what i wanted.

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    I have had my ripcord fail to release due to it's string stretching or perhaps the knot moving. This after the bow was 2 years old, never been tuned, and thankfully in my backyard. Since then I go in for a tuneup every spring before bear season and haven't had any further issues. Maintenance on a compound is neccessary. More so than on my recurve. As far as complexity of rests is concerned. The compound itself is fairly complex. If that is a concern ie: in freezing rain or snow. You may want to stick with a traditional bow. They are simpler tools.

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    Member AK DUX's Avatar
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    You're right in a key being simplicity. As far as the capture-style, you can bet if the weather is sufficient to freeze bristles, it can also freeze-up a fall away; whether it's the tether, the mechanism, whatever.
    Bristles freezing is why I prefer the Hostage rest, which has brushes positioned in the gaps, so the vanes don't come in contact with the brushes at all. This way, if the brushes are frozen, the arrow can still pass.
    I used to shoot with the Whisker Biscuit, but found that it had a tendency to start peeling up the leading edge of the vanes. This can be helped by putting a dab of glue there, which is a good idea whatever rest you use.
    If you're shooting alot of competitive target/3-D, I would likely shoot a fall away. But my hunting bows will always be a Hostage (until they come out with a better idea).
    "We're all here cuz we're not all there"

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    I sure like the idea of Octane's Hostage Pro rest. Simple. Cutout so's not to interfere with the vanes.

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    A bow that is set up correctly with a no stretch premium string should not need a "tune up" every year.

    Any whisker style rest is inherently non consistent. Fall-a-ways are the way to go IMO. I've never seen one fail when used and set up correctly.

    Conditions making a fall away rest inoperable would probably put a lot of extra weight on an arrow, string...ect - as well and a myriad of problems making a responsible shot unlikely...

    To me there is no reason to justify not spending a little more money on a fall away rest.

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    I just love my Whisker Biscuit. I shoot a mathews solo cam and with the Whisker Biscuit I have been able to shoot 60 yards with no problems and keep a group around a soda bottle end. I will never shoot a game at that distance but I keep my skills tuned by shooting all distances. The only reason I have pondered to swap to a drop away is due to the FOB. At this time I will not chage due to what I have is working for me verry well.

    Mont Hunter

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    As noted above.. I have made a drop-away fail and a WB fail..the failure of the WB was far less than the drop away. To clear a WB type rest you simply poke your finger through it. I honestly do not shoot better with a drop away as I do with a WB. I have shot thousands of shots out of Drop Zones, Limb Drivers,
    RipCords, and Trophy Takers...the only thing they did better was allow me to shoot FOBS (which I quit dorking with too). I have no experience with other containment rests like the octane, so I have no opinion on them.

    The most consistent rest available is a simple Pro-Tuner blade style rest. They are virtually impossible to use in the field and are pretty much a target only rest.

    Archery is a very personal business. You have to experiment and decide what is best for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    As noted above.. I have made a drop-away fail and a WB fail..the failure of the WB was far less than the drop away. To clear a WB type rest you simply poke your finger through it. I honestly do not shoot better with a drop away as I do with a WB. I have shot thousands of shots out of Drop Zones, Limb Drivers,
    RipCords, and Trophy Takers...the only thing they did better was allow me to shoot FOBS (which I quit dorking with too). I have no experience with other containment rests like the octane, so I have no opinion on them.

    The most consistent rest available is a simple Pro-Tuner blade style rest. They are virtually impossible to use in the field and are pretty much a target only rest.

    Archery is a very personal business. You have to experiment and decide what is best for you.
    Doug I actually use a pro tuner(well a custom variation of) with a blade for hunting with a heavier blade(although it wouldnt be my first recommendation).Works just like a drop away in therory(well kind of) when set up right the downward push when the arrow is released flexes the blade out of the way for a split second and the vanes pass over and never contact the blade.Tested it many times.
    Drop aways just have too many moving parts to go wrong in the field for my liking
    Dave

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    Member blasterak's Avatar
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    My preferred rest is a Limbdriver, the Pro V full containment model, by far the best rest i've used and customer service is great from Vaportrail. Very reliable, accurate, easy to setup, works everytime, and quiet. To each his own, WB's work fine and are very reliable but I prefer a limb driven drop away.

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    It's good to hear the whys of each person's favorites. AKDoug makes sense to me - so much about gear is personal. And more -so much gear is great today, that sometimes I realize the differences are small. Paul Asman got me sold on simplicity in the field. I did wrap my bow in cloth camo tape after a boat captain told me about a blown stalk because of a bow's metal "clink" on a rock, but I don't think about tricking gear out too much. Hearing why others do things differently - is one of the best elements of these threads. Good posts.

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    I have shot a WB for 10 yrs now and every couple of years another rest comes out that grabs my eye and I take a serious look at it. But obviously from my previous statement I still shoot a WB. Call me crazy but I haven't even changed to the cutaway WB yet. You could say that I'm "stubborn" or anyother word(s) that come to mind. What it boils down to is a couple of things that I belive may have been stated here already and maybe a couple that haven't so here they are IMO:

    1) Is my current setup flawed for my hunting/shooting style/capabilites? - No, I still drill spots at 50 yds and in the field I
    restrict my shots to 30 yds religiously. I know, I
    know some, will say why not go to 40 or 50. This is
    a personal opinion on ethical and humane hunting
    or me and dance to my own beat.

    2) How is a mechanical rest (MR) going to improve my capability? - Arrow speed? Not that big a deal to me I'm more after
    kinetic energy than speed. Accuracy? Not at first at least,
    if anything accuray will decrease do to the learning curve
    of a new rest. I think you get where I'm going here...
    moving on...

    3) How can the MR fail as oppsoed to a WB - Lots of moving parts that when bumped, smacked, jarred ect by my carrying the
    bow through thick brush, slipping and falling, banging against a tree while pulling
    it up to the stand (if you stand hunt) can all be affected which in turn will affect
    your shot. This alone is enough for me to already start backing away from it. The
    freezing issue as mentioned previously is a none issue as both will be equally
    affected IMO. If anything I would believe the WB would have an advantage 3
    because you could easily and clearly see the ice and remove it with complete
    confidence where on a MR the rope would still be saturated.

    4) Is there a noise factor? - I virtually here nothing when drawing my arrow on a WB but that is not the point I am trying to
    make here. My concern is while sitting and often times while stalking I "will" have an arrow
    knocked. So for me arrow stability is a large issue. With a MR I will have to hold the arrow with my
    finger. Not a big deal, I did it before switching to a WB but did have the occasional slip thus
    making noise. Which was also a big factor in my switching to a WB. This may not be an issue for
    you. Or, if I have to turn my bow to clear an abstacle to shoot while in cover will my arrow slip off
    again causing noise and my target most likely will be gone.

    5) Is this rest I'm considering the next "yugo"? - Ok, so I'm dating myself but I like the analogy. To often a new product will
    show up and be the "next best thing to sliced bread" but then will fade away
    I like improvments but with improvments come risks so I like to type that
    have some wear-with-all. If it ends up being the "clearance rack item" next
    season everywhere I go chances are its for a good reason.

    A lot of rambling I know but IMO one can not go wrong with a quality product that fits the shooter and his/her style of shooting. AKDoug I believe said it first and was spot on, "Archery is a very personal business. You have to experiment and decide what is best for you."

    Good Luck and hope I helped

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    WB are great for kids, close shots and nice weather. Seen way too many archers have problems on the haul road with arrow flight when it got cold. The bristles of the WB tore fletchings clean off and caused misses. Thank goodness they were not wounded animals.

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    Whatever. I shot my Haul Rd. 'bou in cold weather using a WB. I've shot it extensively in sub zero temps. Hell, guys have taken them Polar bear hunting in Canada. In the thousands of arrows I have flung using a WB I have yet to lose a fletch.

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    Default Aha - "Capture" style rests!

    Quote Originally Posted by ihntelk View Post
    ... while sitting and often times while stalking I "will" have an arrow
    knocked. So for me arrow stability is a large issue...
    ihntelk,

    That's an interesting angle there. Cool tip, man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woundedknee View Post
    WB are great for kids, close shots and nice weather. Seen way too many archers have problems on the haul road with arrow flight when it got cold. The bristles of the WB tore fletchings clean off and caused misses. Thank goodness they were not wounded animals.
    OK, how about lets hear these stories. I'm curious now. How about details?

    ?... "great for kids"
    ?... "way too many archers"

    Story! Story! Story! Tell it, man.

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    AkDoug has said it right archery is a personal thing.Both rests are in fact great rests and each have their pros and cons so it becomes a personal deciscion.It been said if you have enough water in freezing temps you have more issues then your biskit.If you have vanes coming off then they are not glued on properly.

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    Default Mythbusters... AK style

    We appreciate these tales b/c we often learn from them. There's a wealth of knowledge/experience that individuals bring to their posts.
    A lot is just practical stuff. Often, there's no right or wrong way - in fact, it seems to me some methods or tools will excel in certain situations but not in others. Whatever the tool, it's the situation and luck that make it the right tool more often than the tool itself. Plenty of success been had outdoors with less-than-the-best gear. In this thread, I was aiming... at those experiences, lessons that have brought others to prefer one type of rest. What is it about rest A that really works well (or not) in situation B. Tony Russ was the first "poster" in my mind - that dude has found some magic outdoors - in his first sheephunting book (two now) about his sheephunting experiences; a tale about how a bow might or might not function when it's wet/freezy weather. Another great post was on these forums - which I'll post here.

    "If it gets wet, everything else will be wet and frozen too. Your cables, your arrows, your cams, your limbs etc... all of which effect the arrow flight every bit as much as a frozen bisquit. Read about Tony Russ' story about how he drew a frozen bow on a sheep hunt and the cables came off the cams.

    I once did a test. I soaked the rests on two of my bows, one with a Whisker Bisquit, the other with a drop-away and stuck them outside at -20F. I then went out and shot them both without touching a thing. The WB only missed at 20 yards by 3". The drop away failed to drop, it crunch it's way into the upward position..but that was it..and the miss was over 10".

    I'm a big proponent of shooting what you are comfortable with. I happen to shoot a WB, but I'd never tell anyone to get rid of their drop-away to get one. I just hate the "freezing" up wive's tale".


    That's AKDoug from
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/36707-Whisker-Biscuit-VS-Fall-Away-rest.
    The point to me isn't so much which rest is best - as to show that most gear is great. All gear can fail. Some things that might seem to make sense in the field don't. And some fears are myths. It's been a good thread I think - lot of good viewpoints shared. What-happened-to-me stories. Cool, fireside stuff. Take what you can use. Make up your own mind.

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    I remember seeing on a show where a guy was deer hunting in his stand and his rest froze up for whatever reason. Well, he temporarily fixed the issue by taking a leak on it...gotta do what you gotta do sometimes lol. I've never had a drop away freeze up on me but I don't hardly ever bow hunt in severe winter conditions where that could happen. But if I ever did, i'd maybe consider getting a piece of cloth or some material that I can wrap around the grip and rest to prevent a freeze up, yet easy to remove for taking a shot, whether I was shooting a WB or Drop away. Even a bow sling, like the Primos bow sling that covers the cams and strings would be a great idea to prevent ice/snow build up on the cams and strings/cables. Even a fletching cover for your quiver would be a good idea, I have one that is made out of fleece. Just my thoughts if I was to go about it.

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