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Thread: New 60/40 Phantom Hamilton 212 Diesel Build

  1. #1

    Default New 60/40 Phantom Hamilton 212 Diesel Build

    Here's some build pictures of the all new 60/40 Mega Sportjon Diesel.

    Specs:
    Length 21.6'
    Width 76"
    Sides 31" (1/8" 5052)
    Bottom 3/16" (5086)
    Beam at Transom 95" (160 5052)
    Fuel Capacity 100 (50Gal. Bow 50Gal. Belly) Transferable for weight distribution.
    Hamilton 212 with 2.4 Turbo impeller
    FNM HPE190 Turbo Diesel






    Large Bow hatch and 50gal bow tank. Will make a 6.5' flat deck up front for easily loading gear or ATV.


  2. #2
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    How much will it cost?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain T View Post
    How much will it cost?
    With the following options:
    50 gal belly tank
    Complete interior scorpion bedliner
    Stomp Grate
    Heater/Defroster
    Large Bow Hatch
    Hinged removable windshields.
    Duel Wipers
    Dual Batteries
    Winch Receivers Bow and Stern
    Removable bench seats w/ Cushion
    Wash Down System
    Floscan Multifunction Diesel Fuel Log
    Gateway Tandem Axle
    Hamilton Run Dry Kit

    $59,435.00

    Same boat with a SPJ $48,300.00

  4. #4

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    what is a run dry kit?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by rmk4x4 View Post
    what is a run dry kit?
    The run dry kit allow you to run the hamilton out of the water for short periods of time at idle. The standard cutlass bearing in the hamilton won't allow this so you must have the jet submerged in water or you ruin the bearing. With the kit you can change oil, winterize, troublshoot, etc without running to the lake just to start the engine.

  6. #6

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    why run the 190hp over the 250hp?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by elim View Post
    why run the 190hp over the 250hp?
    We've run the 212 with the 250hp and have performance baseline for this combination. Based on the power absoprtion chart for a hamilton 212, the 190hp should turn the 212 up to ~3900rpm. Where the 250 spools to 4150. The 250 would obviously have a better holeshot and WOT speed but at a standard cruise between 3400-3600 both would be putting out the same performane at the pump. Since the 190 is 100lbs lighter, the boat should actually get slightly better speed and economy at cruise. Extended run times at WOT is not recommended for a diesel or any engine if you want extended life expectancy so it's the cruise performance I'm shooting for. The engine cover will be designed to work with either the 190 or the 250 so we will be able to easily swap to the 250 if we find the need. Both engine close couple to hamilton so it's just a matter of unbolting the 190 and dropping in a 250. Wiring harness and gauges are all the same.

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    "Extended run times at WOT is not recommended for a diesel" Guess that's why my tug broke-down after only 37,000hrs lol.

    Continuous output at 80% and beyond is what a diesel is all about. Your diesel-powered Jon should(would) compare much better against the sportjet-powered version if you ran it like every other gas-vs-diesel comparison. IE, reduced max-power available, but longer life and lower fuel consumption at a specific, real-world power level; otherwise, what is the point?

    IMO, a little 190hp diesel should go all day at 3900rpm and compare favourably against a 2-stroke at 190hp. The only drawback would be some added AUW and a lack of reserve on/off-throttle performance that may be desired while negotiating technical portions of water.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by pilebuck View Post
    "Extended run times at WOT is not recommended for a diesel" Guess that's why my tug broke-down after only 37,000hrs lol.

    Continuous output at 80% and beyond is what a diesel is all about. Your diesel-powered Jon should(would) compare much better against the sportjet-powered version if you ran it like every other gas-vs-diesel comparison. IE, reduced max-power available, but longer life and lower fuel consumption at a specific, real-world power level; otherwise, what is the point?

    IMO, a little 190hp diesel should go all day at 3900rpm and compare favourably against a 2-stroke at 190hp. The only drawback would be some added AUW and a lack of reserve on/off-throttle performance that may be desired while negotiating technical portions of water.
    Pilebuck, your probably correct and I'm just over conservative. My concern when running WOT for extended periods is turbo temperature. We're putting an EGT sensor on this one to give us an idea of how much load is being applied and how hard the engine is working. I typically have found the best fuel economy between 3200-3700rpm and engine temp stays the same throughout this range. When going 3800 or greater the engine temp comes up. It's still within normal range but fuel efficiency is slightly less. The EGT sensor will give me a better idea of how hard the engine is working and how long to sustain WOT. Excess heat on the turbo is what kills their life expectancy. With the 250hp and 212 combo, we see 30mph @ 6gph running 3400 in a boat that was bigger then the sportjon. I expect this boat to weight much less so with the 190hp and 212 running the same impeller we should see equal or even better performance at 3400rpm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halibutgrove View Post
    We're putting an EGT sensor on this one to give us an idea of how much load is being applied and how hard the engine is working.
    If you can, be sure to put your EGT sensor post turbo. They can be placed a number of different ways/places, but to me the idea is to know the maximum heat coming from the cylinders. If you put it pre turbo, you need a boost gauge to calculate the block temperature. Few things are worse than having a cylinder "melt" from high tempertures! The advantage I see in a boat vrs my truck is that you have an unlimited amount of cold water within inches of your engine at all times. Turbos run best with cold air, so maybe you could figure a way to use the river/ocean water to cool the air going into the turbo :-)
    "...and then Jack chopped down the beanstock, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and vandalism charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused just about anything if you're a hero, because no one asks the inconvenient questions." Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger45 View Post
    If you can, be sure to put your EGT sensor post turbo. They can be placed a number of different ways/places, but to me the idea is to know the maximum heat coming from the cylinders. If you put it pre turbo, you need a boost gauge to calculate the block temperature. Few things are worse than having a cylinder "melt" from high tempertures! The advantage I see in a boat vrs my truck is that you have an unlimited amount of cold water within inches of your engine at all times. Turbos run best with cold air, so maybe you could figure a way to use the river/ocean water to cool the air going into the turbo :-)
    The exhaust manifold comes with an 1/8 port just under the turbo so we'll get an idea of maximum heat coming from the cylinders before the turbo. The turbo air charge is after cooled with a cooler but I agree, if guy was wanting to ensure maximum or consistent performance running the ambient air through a precooler wouldn't hurt. Especially with our cold water temps. Im not however, sure it would be worth the added expense and weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger45 View Post
    If you can, be sure to put your EGT sensor post turbo. They can be placed a number of different ways/places, but to me the idea is to know the maximum heat coming from the cylinders. If you put it pre turbo, you need a boost gauge to calculate the block temperature. Few things are worse than having a cylinder "melt" from high tempertures! The advantage I see in a boat vrs my truck is that you have an unlimited amount of cold water within inches of your engine at all times. Turbos run best with cold air, so maybe you could figure a way to use the river/ocean water to cool the air going into the turbo :-)
    here is a water cooled turbo
    it runs very cool as you can see from the pix
    i took the temp after a wot run then lifted the hood and used the laser heat gun


  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbm View Post
    here is a water cooled turbo
    it runs very cool as you can see from the pix
    i took the temp after a wot run then lifted the hood and used the laser heat gun

    Are they cooling that turbo with raw water or fresh water glycol cooling system? At 57C I assume thats raw water and not engine coolant. Our current turbos are oil lubricated and cooled but their coming out with a fresh water cooled version this spring. Keeping the turbo cool is definitely good.

  14. #14
    Member Roger45's Avatar
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    I am coming from this from the truck realm, not the boat, so I am not sure if everything is the same or not. My '97 PSD had a pre drilled bung for an EGT probe on the wrong side. I used a 1/4" brass plug I believed in this bug. I then went to the right side and found a spot to "drill" a new hole for the probe. The kick is to use petroleum jelly on the bit, drill slow, and collect all the shavings so nothing goes into the pipe. It was then a simple thing to "tap" in threats to screw the probe in :-) My point is you can choose whatever spot you want. The critical factor as I understand it, is to know what the maximum temperatures your cylinders are at. You can run up to 1450F for a period of time and be save, but it is best if you try to keep long running periods at 1300F or less. If you are running a probe pre turbo, you need to know what your boost is running so you can calculate the exact temperature at the cylinder, that way you will be safe! I would think with all the cold water near/around you that you most likely are running cooler than 1300F. The other thing I found hard to believe, when the temperatures go up, the way you cool things down is to INCREASE your RPMs. Seemed counter to my logic, but in my truck I down shift and floor it...taking my RPMs from 2,100 to 3,200 and the temperatures drop rapidly...go figure. I am not sure how this could be done with a jet unit though. Fun to tinker around in my mind though :-)
    "...and then Jack chopped down the beanstock, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and vandalism charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused just about anything if you're a hero, because no one asks the inconvenient questions." Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger45 View Post
    I am coming from this from the truck realm, not the boat, so I am not sure if everything is the same or not. My '97 PSD had a pre drilled bung for an EGT probe on the wrong side. I used a 1/4" brass plug I believed in this bug. I then went to the right side and found a spot to "drill" a new hole for the probe. The kick is to use petroleum jelly on the bit, drill slow, and collect all the shavings so nothing goes into the pipe. It was then a simple thing to "tap" in threats to screw the probe in :-) My point is you can choose whatever spot you want. The critical factor as I understand it, is to know what the maximum temperatures your cylinders are at. You can run up to 1450F for a period of time and be save, but it is best if you try to keep long running periods at 1300F or less. If you are running a probe pre turbo, you need to know what your boost is running so you can calculate the exact temperature at the cylinder, that way you will be safe! I would think with all the cold water near/around you that you most likely are running cooler than 1300F. The other thing I found hard to believe, when the temperatures go up, the way you cool things down is to INCREASE your RPMs. Seemed counter to my logic, but in my truck I down shift and floor it...taking my RPMs from 2,100 to 3,200 and the temperatures drop rapidly...go figure. I am not sure how this could be done with a jet unit though. Fun to tinker around in my mind though :-)
    If you put the EGT probe, at the turbo exhaust inlet how would this temperature differ from running at the turbine outlet? How is cylinder temp calculated as you describe? I would think there wouldn't be much drop in temp between the two locations and running it before the turbo would give you a an accurate cylinder temperature. Running the probe in front of the turbo won't give me an indication of how hot the turbo is before shutting down so it will still be prudent to idle for a short period before shutting down.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halibutgrove View Post
    If you put the EGT probe, at the turbo exhaust inlet how would this temperature differ from running at the turbine outlet? How is cylinder temp calculated as you describe? I would think there wouldn't be much drop in temp between the two locations and running it before the turbo would give you a an accurate cylinder temperature. Running the probe in front of the turbo won't give me an indication of how hot the turbo is before shutting down so it will still be prudent to idle for a short period before shutting down.
    EGT probe location is more a matter of personel preference than anything else (most all large deisel engine manufacture's recomend post turbo). pre-turbo will give higher temps by 100 to 300 degrees by virtue of being closer to the cylinders where the heat source is created. post turbo (typically 6" to 12" down-stream from the turbo in the down pipe) will give you a lower temp reading for obvious reasons, not only being further away from the cylinder but from the air flow through the turbo. the more boost the more air-flow through the turbine the cooler egt's will run as the higher air flows will remove the heat at a quicker rate and due to the distance from the heat source you will the lower temps. you can only estimate turbo/cylinder temps from either location, as you are only measuring the temp of the gass's nothing else. with my post installation i typically wait untill i see 200 to 300 degrees before shutdown. if i have stopped from a long pull i will let it run for 3 or 4 minutes at those temps ( 200 to 300 degrees) to allow for the turbo housing and bearings to cool further). by using boost, egt and fuel flow insturments you can not only tune to a given situation, but get a pretty accurate picture of the overall heatlh, performance and fuel econmy of your engine.

  17. #17
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    Bigiron, you do a lot better job at explaining than I can do :-) You are right on, but I am completely lost at the end. What do you mean when you say you wait for temps 200 to 300? Is that 200F? Starting a PSD engine will get you 300F in just a minute or so, even at sub zero temperatures. In the truck world, you start to worry over 1350F for over 30 minutes. It looks like we are talking about completely different things...and/or I am out of my element. I am intersted though in what this means...parameters of 100F are pretty darn small in my book!
    "...and then Jack chopped down the beanstock, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and vandalism charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused just about anything if you're a hero, because no one asks the inconvenient questions." Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger45 View Post
    Bigiron, you do a lot better job at explaining than I can do :-) You are right on, but I am completely lost at the end. What do you mean when you say you wait for temps 200 to 300? Is that 200F? Starting a PSD engine will get you 300F in just a minute or so, even at sub zero temperatures. In the truck world, you start to worry over 1350F for over 30 minutes. It looks like we are talking about completely different things...and/or I am out of my element. I am intersted though in what this means...parameters of 100F are pretty darn small in my book!
    my motor is a Cummins and my probe is 12" post turbo, in my case (each motor, probe location and brand of pyrometers will be a little different). if at a warm engine idle yours reads 350 to 400 (and yes i know about sub-0, worked on the slope for 15 yrs) use that as a baseline temp for a shut off. i do cool downs out of habit as i have driven most any truck you can imagine at one time or another. i really believe that with the newer cooling systems it probably isn't necessary unless you have been in a long hard pull. most of the new engines will sustain temps of 1350 without harm, but (again cause i am an old fart) it makes me nervous. yes 100 degree parameters are very small, right until to get into the 13-1400 degree range then they get really, really big and expensive!
    i have modified my 2003 5.9 so i don't see egt temps of over 1150 (post turbo = 1250 to 1350 if the probe were pre-turbo) during a hard pull and this motor produces about 385hp and around 800 ft # of torque (and still gets 16.5 to 17.5 mgp mixed driving and 19 to 21 mgp freeway).

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigiron View Post
    EGT probe location is more a matter of personel preference than anything else (most all large deisel engine manufacture's recomend post turbo). pre-turbo will give higher temps by 100 to 300 degrees by virtue of being closer to the cylinders where the heat source is created. post turbo (typically 6" to 12" down-stream from the turbo in the down pipe) will give you a lower temp reading for obvious reasons, not only being further away from the cylinder but from the air flow through the turbo. the more boost the more air-flow through the turbine the cooler egt's will run as the higher air flows will remove the heat at a quicker rate and due to the distance from the heat source you will the lower temps. you can only estimate turbo/cylinder temps from either location, as you are only measuring the temp of the gass's nothing else. with my post installation i typically wait untill i see 200 to 300 degrees before shutdown. if i have stopped from a long pull i will let it run for 3 or 4 minutes at those temps ( 200 to 300 degrees) to allow for the turbo housing and bearings to cool further). by using boost, egt and fuel flow insturments you can not only tune to a given situation, but get a pretty accurate picture of the overall heatlh, performance and fuel econmy of your engine.
    Bigiron, thanks for the clarification, it concurs with what I thought. Putting the probe pre-turbo is simple at this point since there's already a 1/8 NPT port there. It should give me some baseline performance numbers to look at for each rpm and at specific jet absorption load.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halibutgrove View Post
    Bigiron, thanks for the clarification, it concurs with what I thought. Putting the probe pre-turbo is simple at this point since there's already a 1/8 NPT port there. It should give me some baseline performance numbers to look at for each rpm and at specific jet absorption load.
    yes it will give you a baseline and closer combustion chamber temps than post-turbo.
    just keep one thing in mind pyrometer probes can and will break off at one time or another: read 2"x 1/4" metal probe versus cast exhaust turbine wheel at 50,000 rpm = bummer

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