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Thread: DLP scenario...what do you guys think?

  1. #1
    Member zekeski's Avatar
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    Default DLP scenario...what do you guys think?

    Recently back from a Kodiak deer hunt, my hunting partner and I were discussing a potential DLP scenario and I came out wondering about the concensus on this one. We went up a valley after spotting a nice buck and after a good stalk we crested a ridge and below us were four great bucks. We dropped three and were field dressing them in the bottom of a small bowl surrounded by hills and thick brush. The "what if" comes into question here. If a bear had come in on us, especially a sow with cubs, we would have had very little time to make a decision...back off and let them come in or fire warning shots to hopefully scare her off or potentially anger her into a charge. Since we had our gear, including packs, binos, rifles, sat phone, etc. and would not have time to pick it up and back off, would this be a legit DLP scenario in your opinion? Which brings about another question. If this bear ended up being shot, what gets packed out first, the deer meat or the bear hide? My decision is easy. Yes it is a DLP situation since my expensive property AND survival gear would now be property of some stinky bear until after they had their way with it, and my deer meat would go out first. I would have posted this in the 'Ask A Trooper forum', but the rules say no "what if" questions. Well....what if? Thanks and happy hunting an Merry Xmas...
    Randy

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    Member ksaye's Avatar
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    This is just my opinion...

    You have the 3 deer down. First, I would have everything in my pack except a knife and of course my gun. I would be butchering the deer while my partner was standing as a look-out. If a bear and cubs were spotted and started to come in; I would grab my pack and begin shouting and trying to deter the bears. If they continued to come in, I would regress with my gear and give up the game. I don't feel this is a DLP; particularly since the meat is not for my survival. I think there needs to be some extra care taken with keeping everything contained when hunting in heavy bear country; and if you had your sat phone, pack, binos, and everything scattered about while cutting up deer; you are irresponsible.

    If it happened so fast that you could not grab your pack but were able to safely move from the attack; then I still don't think this is a DLP since they are after the deer. I guess your defense is that your survival gear will be in the pack. Still don't think it is a DLP; but more of a SOL.
    I think if you did kill the bear(s); I would call a trooper immediately; then I would pack the deer out to base camp or a safe area; and then go back and work on the bears; which would be a tough task...

    Of course if I am butchering and the bears come in and attack without warning; meaning the bears are charging and contact is imminent, then DLP is on...obviously.

    just my thoughts; hope it never happen to me. DLP can be tricky and don't want to be in that situation.

  3. #3
    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    This is an interesting question, a good one Zekeski,
    Would be cool to get some clarity from a Wildlife Trooper of some sort,

    On Kodiak, I know for certain they consider the Bears to be a pretty high priority (remember almost the entire island is set aside as a Wildlife Refuge with Bears the primary motivation for refuge from abuse)

    and I am quite sure it won't go easy for you if your argument is that a Kodiak Brown Bear was coming close to stomping on your Swaros, or might eat all your power bars by which you hoped to survive.
    (On Kodiak anyway, they're not considered "Stinky old Bears" much)

    Might be a whole different picture up north in Grizzly country, or concerning Black Bears but,
    I do know a few guys who have done the DLP thing and they ALL said, never again, ugly amount of paperwork, explaining, incredible amount of work for not much return, etc.
    Not even suggesting anyone should cover it up, just "Avoid At All Costs," the "No Options Left" situation.
    Like three Deer down at once for example, might be inviting trouble, on Kodiak anyway.

    Realistically, I would probably take things out of my pack one at a time, Really, that is serious country out there, Be careful

    Glad you were that successful down here, even more that you got 'em all out w/o Bear problems, Well Done

    So, I think ksaye is probably right on with his assessment. property and/or your survival is not nearly as important as some of us would like to imagine.

    Be Careful, it's tricky ground. But I am not a Trooper, not sure how they would interpret it, probably pretty tightly tho
    Thanks for the thread, would be cool to hear more from the authorities
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  4. #4

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    Sorry but i have to say its a clear DLP case, If the bear is coming in so slow that you can grab your gear and back off, its probably not going to be hard to scare off? Wouldnt this be a perfect scenerio for some good bear spray though? Also have to question the decision on downing 3 bucks at once, two might have been safer. I am sure if the bear was planning on stealing your deer, it might also come in fast enough to do it right, I dont have much experience with bears though, just dont picture one walking in real slow like, in plain sight, giving you time to debate what to do, probably just shoot it, or preferably bear spray it??

    If your gear isnt enough to be considered your "property" then why the hell wouldnt the law just be, DL. somone might have 5 grand worth of crap in there pack...thats nothing though right...

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    Member CGSwimmer25's Avatar
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    I would find it amazing if a bear would come in to 3 dead deer and end up picking up a pack and walking off. If your surprised to find a bear right on top of you while your butchering, a DLP situation might play out. Otherwise, I would back up and let it take the deer. Now that thats out of the way....lets see some pictures!!!

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Pretty much agree with Coastie. If you wer caught of guard and were in direct danger then it would be DLP. If you had the opportunity to back out and forfeit the carcasses then that should be done. As far as your gear, it is obvious that you thought about the potential of this situation which to me says you should have taken steps to insure that you could grab your gear and egress the situation quickly.

    Now If I was knelt down butchering a deer and looked over and saw a bear with my Dan McHale custom pack containing all my optics in his mouth, well he is going to get DLP'd with a capital "P". I appreciate those who think a pack doesn't qualify but that pack and gear is worth more than my wheeler and nearly as much as my boat and I dang sure would shoot a bear chewing on my AC700 or outboard!!

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Know the Regulations before you Hunt!

    "Alaska State Regulations prohibit killing a bear to retrieve hunter-killed game (see Defense of Life or Property [DLP] in the regulations)."
    http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index...ing.bearsafety

    Please remember that game meat is not defined as "property" in the regs when it comes to shooting a bear (without a tag/permit/open season) to defend the meat, unless that meat is critical to your survival and you are in a survival situation. I doubt you'd get away with the claim that you were defending the property in your packs, if something like this did occur it's best to have your packs ready to pick up and go, if the bear(s) doesn't back off, then you do and you let them have the deer. Those deer are still on your tags too, so keep that in mind.

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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    I think the chances are really remote that a bear would even mess with a pack if there was a deer carcass within 100 yards of the thing. If a bear doesn't back off when given the chance and shows even a slightest amount of aggression towards me I will consider a DLP shooting. I will easily give up the game animal and that usually satisfies any bear that is messing with you. I punch my tag for the deer and move on.
    Bunny Boots and Bearcats: Utility Sled Mayhem

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    also that if you cause the situation it is not a DLP...

    but two guys.. two pack.. three deer?

    bear coming down the hill wont turn... pick up packs & one deer each.. and bear gets one.. chances are it will be happy with that as a meal while you walk of the hill..

    lost a moose to a bear once... hurt for two years. but there was NO way we were going into that brush with a bear that drug off a entire, near 50" bull ... hence i no longer leave meat out in the dark.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    You can't DLP a bear to protect your meat, but if the contents of your pack contains valuable items necessary for your livelihood or survival you can.
    I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

  11. #11

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    Interesting thread. I think this is one of those situations, where if you were to ask 15 different fish and wildlife troopers, you would get 15 different answers. In my opinion, I would think that if the bear came in and camped on your kill, and your gear was there, and your gear was critical to your survival, then yes you could claim DLP, but I can almost guarantee you would have to plead your case before a judge and you would need to get yourself a lawyer. Because you would have to prove your innocence that you indeed were defending your life because your gear was critical to your survival. In other words, if the bear was tearing up your sleeping bag, and your tent, then you could claim DLP. Now if the bear was just preventing you from picking up your skinning knife and a saw however, then I would think it would be wise to leave it be or else wait until the bear leaves the area before claiming your possessions. This is a sticky situation. I would think twice before ever engaging in a DLP situation. Unless the bear was charging me, then it is a clear choice. Go ahead and shoot. In which case, you would have to pack out the hide and the skull for a DLP situation.

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    Member CGSwimmer25's Avatar
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    Defense of life & property. Property is property regardless of if it is necessary to survival or not. I believe it is legal either way but it's up to the individual to determine if it is worth shooting the bear because it's using your spotting scope as a mountain chew toy.

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    Member Alaskan22's Avatar
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    Bang, bang, bang.

    Drop off hide and say "this bear attacked me". Say no more, as you don't have to.

    End of Story.
    Know guns. Know peace. Know safety.

    No guns: no peace. No safety!

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    Member Bighorse's Avatar
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    Three bucks is a painful chore to break down and hump around a mountain. Your looking at three hours of just field work before you get the boots moving. Thats plenty of oportunity for a bear to move in. I'm onboard with the sentiment delivered here, avoid a DLP kill at all costs, including the cost of loosing your deer meat. I can't predict what kind of intentions a bear has that decides to move in on you and and your buddy. You just might have to do it and indeed file a DLP report. Read the bear behavior and make the most correct decision for the moment. Its a very fluid situation being in close proximity to a hungry bear. I would hope that a quick exit showing your intentions to reliquish the quarry would satisfy the bear and leave him to enjoy a meal.

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    Member zekeski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    "Alaska State Regulations prohibit killing a bear to retrieve hunter-killed game (see Defense of Life or Property [DLP] in the regulations)."
    http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index...ing.bearsafety

    Please remember that game meat is not defined as "property" in the regs when it comes to shooting a bear (without a tag/permit/open season) to defend the meat, unless that meat is critical to your survival and you are in a survival situation. I doubt you'd get away with the claim that you were defending the property in your packs, if something like this did occur it's best to have your packs ready to pick up and go, if the bear(s) doesn't back off, then you do and you let them have the deer. Those deer are still on your tags too, so keep that in mind.
    Mark, I understand the regulations, I keep a copy on my toilet so it's the most read piece of literature in my house. I would never DLP a bear if it claimed an animal that I had shot. Please re-read the questions. Also, I never stated my gear was scattered around nilly-willy. Also there were three of us, and three buck down. Thanks for the input fellas, very interesting takes on the matter. I will post some pics of our hunt later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGSwimmer25 View Post
    Defense of life & property. Property is property regardless of if it is necessary to survival or not. I believe it is legal either way but it's up to the individual to determine if it is worth shooting the bear because it's using your spotting scope as a mountain chew toy.
    Well, philosophically I would agree with your definition of property, but I doubt your argument would stand in a court of law. According to fish and game, you would have to do EVERYTHING possible first to prevent the death of the animal. Shooting the bear to save your ipod probably wouldn't qualify as EVERYTHING possible. Also, according to fish and game's definition of property (your dwelling, your means of travel, your pets or livestock, your fish drying racks, or other valuable property necessary to your livelihood or survival), you would be in violation for shooting the bear for any and all of your possessions. Just sayin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhack Jack View Post
    Well, philosophically I would agree with your definition of property, but I doubt your argument would stand in a court of law. According to fish and game, you would have to do EVERYTHING possible first to prevent the death of the animal. Shooting the bear to save your ipod probably wouldn't qualify as EVERYTHING possible. Also, according to fish and game's definition of property (your dwelling, your means of travel, your pets or livestock, your fish drying racks, or other valuable property necessary to your livelihood or survival), you would be in violation for shooting the bear for any and all of your possessions. Just sayin...
    While I understand your point and agree somewhat, I think there is a very valid argument that ," what is contained in my pack " is directly related to my chances of survival, some of us will travel considerable distances in hunting situations and what is carried in our pack can make all the difference in making a safe return. As a matter of fact I think there is legitimate argument for a great deal of hunting situations pertaining to items carried into the field.

    I would not consider the carcass of a moose or caribou , etc. that I had just killed " my property" and use it as justification for shooting a bear trying to claim such an animal. I would, however ,elect to fill my bear harvest tag on an incedental opportunity.

    That being said, I would never carry an Ipod out hunting... EVER !

  18. #18

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    If you are threatened, shoot the bear. Let the fish cops write you a ticket and let the judge and jury decide if you did wrong. Just because some brown shirt gives you paper doesn't mean it's all over.

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    Member tyrex13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskan22 View Post
    Bang, bang, bang.

    Drop off hide and say "this bear attacked me". Say no more, as you don't have to.

    End of Story.
    I like the way you think

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    [...] but two guys.. two pack.. three deer?
    Easy, both guys carry 1.5 deer on their packs; we've done it more than once while hunting Kodiak after shooting a deer on the way back to camp.

    If your hunting in Alaska - especially in Kodiak, never have both guys cleaning animals at the same time! A hunter should always be standing watch and ready for a 'dinner bell bear' to approach looking for a free meal (Kodiak is known for this). It doesn't matter where your kill is at.. I've seen huge browns on mountain tops stalking deer and eating just as I've seen them down in the valleys/thickets and along the ocean.

    Regarding the DLP question, I don't think the original post in this thread would amount to one. First, a bear that approaches a kill site has the right of way. Second, the deer are not your property. Third, in your example, the bear(s) didn't charge or act agressive so we can't determine if an average person would feel you acted within reason or did enough (if applicable) to avoid an incident before shooting. Fourth, the property on your person/in your pack most likely won't be enough to claim a DLP unless it contains your only tent, sleeping bag, food, water, etc. for the entire trip. I doubt this ever would be the case and if it was, well, someone seriously needs some training in the outdoors. Again, by having someone stand watch you could have avoided the entire situtation. I'm no expert, but from what I've heard, F&G may take this into consideration.

    If you ever find yourself in this position know F&G will be asking questions till the cows come home and you have the right to limit your response (just expect F&G to pull out a find tooth comb because if you were 'innocent' you would answer all their questions, right?). There is a thread somewhere in the forums that discuss's talking to F&G after a DLP (what you have to disclose by law vs. what they want you to discuss and disclose). It may be good to review - if anyone find's it, please post a link to it.

    Good thread!
    "He should have been packing a more powerful gun...you have to be a very good shot or very lucky to stop a brown bear with a .357 Magnum." - Rick Sinnott, Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologist after a double attack by a grizzly.

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