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Thread: SFW in Utah - Could it happen here too?

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default SFW in Utah - Could it happen here too?

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50...-utah.html.csp

    Excerpt:
    The moment, critics say, represents everything that’s wrong with the way Utah sets its wildlife management policy.


    Byron Bateman, president of the powerful lobbying group Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, had just finished speaking before the Utah Wildlife Board as it pondered the state’s most dramatic changes to its deer-hunting laws in two decades. Bateman then walked up to Jim Karpowitz, director of the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, and handed him a check for $391,000.


    Later that day, the board passed the sweeping overhaul, regulations that were largely crafted and promoted by Bateman’s SFW. The changes, which go into effect in 2012, will reduce the number of deer-hunting permits by at least 13,000 annually and dramatically increase the cost of a general-season hunting tag in Utah...


    The Utah Wildlife Cooperative’s Hansen has a different take, saying the new regulations risk discouraging existing hunters and make it difficult for youth to get involved in the sport.


    “There isn’t one anti-hunting group out there that could come up with a way to eliminate 13,000 permits like SFW just did,” Hansen said.


    The whole article is worth a read.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    The two side bar articles tell more of the real story. Who this 'special interest' group is, and how they generate their lobbying money is beside the point, I think. Look at the second side bar story quoting statistics from Utah hunters; the majority of them are dissatisfied with the quantity and quality of Mule deer bucks available for them to hunt in Utah. So, how do you grow more larger bucks? You harvest fewer bucks.

    In Utah, the red herring of predator control is not in the equation to any significant extent, like it is here in Alaska. In Utah they can't take the largely ignorant position that in order to grow more larger bucks, all they have to do is shoot more wolves.... If they want to grow more deer, they need to harvest less deer. That's the bottom line.

    There are some side debates that could be made, such as competition from permitee cattle grazing on Public lands and the like...

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    Remember that in Alaska the check would have to go to the legislature, then they'd decide whether to pass it on or to spend it on something else. Any bets on that happening?

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    Hell, all we had to do was buy Denby Llyod a coupla cases of Keystone Light & we'd be SET!

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    Member Riptide's Avatar
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    Default Actions Speak Louder Than Words ....

    Its no wonder SFW is on its last legs in Alaska .... Actions Speak Louder Than Words ....

    From the article: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50...-utah.html.csp

    While the group has put wildlife interests on the political map, it has done so by attracting what can best be described as hard-core big game hunters [trophy hunters] who spend serious money and serious time chasing deer, elk, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, pronghorn and moose. One Utah elk permit was recently auctioned for $70,000 at an SFW event, according to the group’s website.

    So-called “average hunters,”perhaps described as folks who just want to be able to hunt big game each year and couldn’t care less about bagging trophy bucks for the wall, are largely absent from the organization.

    The Utah Wildlife Cooperative’s Hansen has a different take, saying the new regulations risk discouraging existing hunters and make it difficult for youth to get involved in the sport.

    "There isn’t one anti-hunting group out there that could come up with a way to eliminate 13,000 permits like SFW just did,” Hansen said.
    Wade Willis


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    Member fullbush's Avatar
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    Looks like the fat cat trophy hunters will be finally getting what they want. If this happens here I'm gonna have a lot more competition drawing a ewe tag dam!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Remember that in Alaska the check would have to go to the legislature, then they'd decide whether to pass it on or to spend it on something else. Any bets on that happening?
    Each Board member has to be confirmed by the legislature it won't take but one friendly gov and legislature to load the board.
    Chuck

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    isn't this similar to what the AK chapter of Back country hunters and Angeles has been trying to accomplish?

    reduce non resident hunting opportunity.. and increase resident tags and license fees to make us less dependent on non resident fees?

    loss of tags is a loss of tags in any state or book. increased fees are just that...


    oh yeah... i forgot... Alaska is different... in that it JUST has not caught up to the rest of the country...


    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Frank,

    As you know, Alaska is just "different." And way behind the times really compared to the lower-48 in terms of resident/nonresident allocations of game, license and permit fees to cover mgmt, and how we (don't) limit guide numbers. All of which influence the experience in the field, not to mention sheep populations. So you won't see a similar stance there in Idaho. They've already gone through this aspect of allocation, license and permit fees, guiding numbers and influence, and how all that affects sheep populations and sheep hunting.

    We can, and should, learn from that here in Alaska. I'd think you'd be on board with that.
    Sincerely,
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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with limiting non-res hunters and guides when appropriate.

    I have yet to read anything positive about SFW...

    Tim

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tccak71 View Post
    Nothing wrong with limiting non-res hunters and guides when appropriate.

    I have yet to read anything positive about SFW...

    Tim
    i just think it is hilarious that one outdoor org is pointing fingers at another... it's like one fat kid telling the other fat kid... "your overweight."

    or my org is better then your org.. and my orgs parent org will beat yours up...

    LMAO!
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    There is a significant difference between an org raising money itself ( SFW) and then giving the money to the state, and an org suggesting that we should raise license fees in order to adequately fund OUR Dept of fish and game... AK BHA would prefer to see ALL hunters helping pay for the services that the Dept provides to ALL of us.
    AK BHA has never proposed raising money ourselves to turn over to the state... Why, that sounds like an attempt to curry favor
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    So when DU does member drives for habitat rehab.... thats curring favor too? or when its members volunteer to go out and build nest boxes.. ( even here in AK) thats curring favor?

    arnt there a few other orgs that do the same sorta thing to? RMF?

    i am quite sure you are correct in that the AKBHA would never dream of collecting money,,,, and giving it to anyone else...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    So when DU does member drives for habitat rehab.... thats curring favor too? or when its members volunteer to go out and build nest boxes..?
    Vince, if you can't see the difference I m not gonna try and explain it.
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org/

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    SFW gave them a check from auctioned governors tags. It was the states money that they gave them, not SFW's.

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    The two side bar articles tell more of the real story. Who this 'special interest' group is, and how they generate their lobbying money is beside the point, I think. Look at the second side bar story quoting statistics from Utah hunters; the majority of them are dissatisfied with the quantity and quality of Mule deer bucks available for them to hunt in Utah. So, how do you grow more larger bucks? You harvest fewer bucks.

    In Utah, the red herring of predator control is not in the equation to any significant extent, like it is here in Alaska. In Utah they can't take the largely ignorant position that in order to grow more larger bucks, all they have to do is shoot more wolves.... If they want to grow more deer, they need to harvest less deer. That's the bottom line.

    There are some side debates that could be made, such as competition from permitee cattle grazing on Public lands and the like...
    Some folks seem to have an incredible grasp of the irrelevant...See, everybody's arguing about where the money came from, and who's special interest group is more special... Did any body read the full article? Did any body read the side bar story that clearly indicates the RESIDENT HUNTERS say there are too few bucks available to hunt, and they are too small? That's the issue here, supply and demand; not enough supply to meet the demand. A group is trying to take a step toward remedying the problem. Who cares where the money came from.

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    Member slimm's Avatar
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    iofthetaiga,,,,,,,,,Who cares where the money came from?????????????? Are you serious?????????????
    Maybe the folks that have been waiting for years to draw a tag, but have to sit on the sidelines for years watching that tag go to the highest bidder might care.
    I'll tell ya where the money comes from though,,just in case anybody cares,SFW snakes out tags from the PUBLIC !!!!! often the best tags available, then auctions them off to the the rich folks that don't want to wait there turn like the common folks have to..But SFW tries to lead you to believe that their money is coming from membership dues.
    In the beginning SFW Utah asked for five tags to sell, now they have managed to snag 500 plus tags away from the PUBLIC!!!!! pool, they make millions off of em but only a few hundred thousand ever makes on the ground to benefit wildlife!!! Whats up with that?
    Well Don Peay/also known as Peay day/ founder of SFW promised full disclosure of where the money goes when he first started out, he has been asked repeatedly for some disclosure, still after years of prodding he hasn't cut lose of any records, he did promise to hold a big meeting and give full disclosure, well he had his meeting,, it turned out to be a opportunity for Don to thump his chest and tell about what a hero he is,
    but STILL!!! no disclosure of how the money is spent,, and that's what the whole meeting was supposed to be about...
    If SFW is on the level why all the secrets on how the money is spent??
    Some of SFW's tax returns were dug up, guess what?? Well over a million that year was spent in consulting fees, guess what?? Peay is a consultant to SFW,, Imagine that???
    If anybody cares to find out what SFW is really about do a search on the this link ,http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bi...rum/dcboard.pl
    Make no mistake about it SFW is in Alaska for SFW,, not Alaska..
    And if you really care, sign up at MM and ask about SFW,, Heh,heh,,, I'm sure there will be plenty of replys..

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slimm View Post
    iofthetaiga,,,,,,,,,Who cares where the money came from?????????????? Are you serious?????????????
    Maybe the folks that have been waiting for years to draw a tag, but have to sit on the sidelines for years watching that tag go to the highest bidder might care.
    I'll tell ya where the money comes from though,,just in case anybody cares,SFW snakes out tags from the PUBLIC !!!!! often the best tags available, then auctions them off to the the rich folks that don't want to wait there turn like the common folks have to..But SFW tries to lead you to believe that their money is coming from membership dues.
    In the beginning SFW Utah asked for five tags to sell, now they have managed to snag 500 plus tags away from the PUBLIC!!!!! pool, they make millions off of em but only a few hundred thousand ever makes on the ground to benefit wildlife!!! Whats up with that?
    Well Don Peay/also known as Peay day/ founder of SFW promised full disclosure of where the money goes when he first started out, he has been asked repeatedly for some disclosure, still after years of prodding he hasn't cut lose of any records, he did promise to hold a big meeting and give full disclosure, well he had his meeting,, it turned out to be a opportunity for Don to thump his chest and tell about what a hero he is,
    but STILL!!! no disclosure of how the money is spent,, and that's what the whole meeting was supposed to be about...
    If SFW is on the level why all the secrets on how the money is spent??
    Some of SFW's tax returns were dug up, guess what?? Well over a million that year was spent in consulting fees, guess what?? Peay is a consultant to SFW,, Imagine that???
    If anybody cares to find out what SFW is really about do a search on the this link ,http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bi...rum/dcboard.pl
    Make no mistake about it SFW is in Alaska for SFW,, not Alaska..
    And if you really care, sign up at MM and ask about SFW,,
    Heh,heh,,, I'm sure there will be plenty of replys..
    a lot of this was brought up two years ago when SF AK was making its push for pred man. in 16... recently i have been asking again.

    and it comes down to, the AK chapter supposedly has little to do with the L48 SFW.. no money is sent down to them, and the parent org has little input into AK SFW. aside from sharing some magazine and booth space at shows.

    i know 3 of the SFW board members personally, as well some of the folks that assisted getting it off the ground. and all tell me that they do all they can to keep the image SFW L48 has ... from happening here.

    Peays mistakes down there have several other orgs on the watch for similar activities here as well.. and so far are also telling me that there is a difference. but for some SFW AK has not been in action long enough to know for sure.

    i personal have no issues with calling the executive director of one org and asking him/her their opinion of another..

    just sayin.. that 2 years ago i was listening to all the anti hype... and now am not so sure it is accurate at least on the AK level...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member AlpineEarl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    SFW gave them a check from auctioned governors tags. It was the states money that they gave them, not SFW's.
    No not really. SFW only gives back a portion of the proceeds. In some cases it's less than 30 per cent. SFW keeps the lions share from the sale. This is one of the biggest criticisms in UT. SFW makes a great deal of money from selling state tags. They profit from a state resource. How is that ok? So you would be ok with the Gov. giving SFW 10 sheep tags (taken directly from the total allocation), SFW auctions them for 50k each and then pays the state 5k for each tag. Then they request more tags each year. Each year they get more and more tags. Each year your chance for drawing a tag decreases in a compounding manner as SFW's tags allocation increases. But what the heck Lujon, you can always buy one for 50k

    Just do a simple search for SFW and stream access in UT. They lobbied to restrict access to navigable rivers flowing through private property. it may be a crazy idea to want outdoor groups (though I don't consider SFW one) to try and expand access for hunting and fishing. If SFW gets their way you'll have to buy a 50k auction tag to go sheep hunting and you won't be allowed to even step in a stream because someone owns the water.

    Absurd.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    AE, your statement goes against the premise of what has folks up in arms. The article was saying that it appeared as though SFW was "paying off" the board. I was pointing out that they were giving the state their cut of auctioned tags. It was the states money that they gave them, not a pay-off, though I do agree it was handled poorly. I don't see how you stating that SFW barely gives anything back to the state and keeps most of the money for themselves adds any weight to the argument that it was a payoff. If anything it undermines that argument.

    If I were to pay 50K for a tag it better be in some place like Kyrgyzstan! Personally if I had any interest in hunting Idaho I would be worried. At this time I am only really worried about AK, I am pro resident hunter and so far I don't see where SFW AK has done anything but increase resident opportunity and do it with real dollars! I am not saying that I am not looking at them critically, I definitely am! I just don't see any evidence so far that gives me the idea that they are going to turn AK into a private hunting reserve for the wealthy.

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    A little info on Utahs Mule deer, past & present.

    http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/big..._deer_plan.pdf

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