View Poll Results: regarding the next years cow hunts

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  • absolutely NOT no cows killed

    17 13.08%
  • Of course when the biology warrents it

    84 64.62%
  • I just want a moose

    22 16.92%
  • not in the winter after the bulls shed

    7 5.38%
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Thread: COW HUNTS, its that time to reauthorize or can them

  1. #1
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default COW HUNTS, its that time to reauthorize or can them

    With the Winter season upon us it is time for the AC's to be meeting, and hearing data from the Biologist , Hopefully all the units got counted. ( i know i did my part more on that later)
    so the angst of cow hunting is upon the members of the AC's yet again. and they will have to vote to abolish or allow them yet another year..

    many of the old school thought do not want to hear or believe the biologist for various reasons, they seen the herd crash when it peaked in the 70's about the time cow hunts started up then, and are leery of it happening now

    there are those that only want more moose... and limiting herd size is not understandable to them..

    some are simply against shooting females

    some want more bull moose, and resent the SF/50 regulation while having any bull tags out there. and use the cow hunts as leverage to try to get back to any bull anytime.

    some want big bulls all the time

    and some just want meat, don't care if it is bulls or cows.. they are just sick of not seeing a legal moose.

    some understand herd management and believe that cow harvest is a necessary evil to maintain a healthy ungulate population.

    perceptions are based solely upon what each person witnessed during the hunting season. for many it was a few days here and there, for many it was 1-7-15 days and for some it was the 2 weeks prior to 2 weeks after season for time in the field..

    so for the most part Cow hunts are only open to Alaska residents. so please do not vote in the poll if you are not eligible to hunt them..

    a short poll that will in no way meet all the concerns or view points just do the best you can... space is limited here so i can not get enough questions in the spaces...
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  2. #2
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    they need a cow registration hunt in unit 14 right behind my house that would be the easiest hunt ever shoot it with a bow watch it walk a few feet lay down die I hook my ranger up to it drag it on snow a 100 feet to my heated garage skin it out and off to the butcher I go.

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    Are you intentionaly singling out "cow" hunts, or do you really mean "antlerless" hunts? The winter hunts in particular make an anterless tag a chance at a bull which has shed its antlers, still legal by definition. In retrospect, I do not recall any of the "cow" tags I have had, read anything other than "antlerless".

    Whatever the case may be, I just want a moose. If the Bio. sees fit to cull "cows" from the herd and I have a good chance at that tag/hunt, I will take it to fill my freezer.

  4. #4
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    on a serious note we spent alot of time in unit 13 moose hunting this year and we saw lots of moose plenty of sublegals and plenty of big ones and plenty of cows. But the thing with the cows was very few had calfs with them? The two areas we hunted we saw brown bears and I ran into a fresh calf caribou kill. So are the bears up there having free for all on the calf moose? I had friends hunting up in 20D and they saw plenty moose as well they did not mention anything on cows with calfs though. All they said lot of moose up there.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by .338WM View Post
    Are you intentionaly singling out "cow" hunts, or do you really mean "antlerless" hunts? The winter hunts in particular make an anterless tag a chance at a bull which has shed its antlers, still legal by definition. In retrospect, I do not recall any of the "cow" tags I have had, read anything other than "antlerless".

    Whatever the case may be, I just want a moose. If the Bio. sees fit to cull "cows" from the herd and I have a good chance at that tag/hunt, I will take it to fill my freezer.
    I agree if they want to hand out anterless registration tags I'm all for it meat in the freezer.

  6. #6
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .338WM View Post
    Are you intentionaly singling out "cow" hunts, or do you really mean "antlerless" hunts? The winter hunts in particular make an anterless tag a chance at a bull which has shed its antlers, still legal by definition. In retrospect, I do not recall any of the "cow" tags I have had, read anything other than "antlerless".

    Whatever the case may be, I just want a moose. If the Bio. sees fit to cull "cows" from the herd and I have a good chance at that tag/hunt, I will take it to fill my freezer.
    okay my bad ANTLERLESS hunts thanks for straighting me out..
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  7. #7
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    Meat is Meat.
    Cows in Winter are still fat compared to rutted out exhausted Bulls.
    Better food anyway.


    Unit 23 has had Cow hunts since I can remember, and the Moose are still in the way.....
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

  8. #8
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    We have an antlerless hunt to re-authorize as well........................only our AC chair won't call a meeting. Getting pretty frustrated!!
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    We have an antlerless hunt to re-authorize as well........................only our AC chair won't call a meeting. Getting pretty frustrated!!
    Call him/her out on it or go over their heads.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by 323 View Post
    I agree if they want to hand out anterless registration tags I'm all for it meat in the freezer.
    I second this but, I don't want to see a slaughter or any region nor any chance of hunter chaos, like I witnessed in Delta couple years ago. Talk about a mad house of 4-wheelers everywhere. I'm a meat hunt kind of guy.
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  11. #11
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default This is just my personal opinion

    Advisory Committees should not have sole authority over antlerless hunts.

    The reason ACs have that authority now stems from bad decisions in the 70s when F&G recommended antlerless hunts and herds subsequently crashed. The legislature then gave the authority to deny antlerless hunts to ACs. A lot has changed since then, especially our population monitoring abilities and the science behind when moose herds are healthy or near carrying capacity for their range.

    Also, the other thing that changed since then is the legislature passed our Intensive Management law in 1993 that mandates F&G and BOG try to reach various population densities and harvest levels for moose in many areas. It was widely known that the only way the harvest objectives would ever be close to being met was by harvesting cows.

    Beyond that, in order for us to have healthy sustainable moose herds, certain variables need to be met, such as certain bull:cow ratios. Which means at times, regardless of IM law mandates, there are times when biologically we need to take some cows.

    Leaving all these decisions up to Advisory Committees, who can at whim, for political or personal reasons deny antlerless hunts, is imo wrong. And it needs to be changed.

    In answer to Vince's question, I think if we have current and accurate population density information for various areas, habitat information, twinning rates, parturition rates, ratios...that is the information that should be used to determine if antlerless hunts are either needed or warranted. Let the area bios do the monitoring and make the call.

    Of course, ACs can and should be able to still weigh in. I just don't think in current times ACs should have sole authority to where antlerless hunts can be denied.

  12. #12
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    Come on Mark, it's not like the Bio isn't right there providing his input. We select the AC members who have the vote. It is a pretty open system. Before my hiatus in the M.E. I sat in on a Mat-Su meeting where the Bio reviewed his findings and gave his recommendation. I don't think that last years attempted pot-latch coup is reason enough to call the system broke. If an AC member isn't doing what the people want then vote them out next time around. No different than any other political office.

  13. #13

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    some want big bulls all the time
    Big bulls pay the bills. Period.

  14. #14
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    Mark.....you are putting ADF&G on a pedestal and relegating ACs to the back room......Biologists can have personal agendas also! The system is working [with a few glitches] and is improving as more folks take the time to learn more about the management of their wildlife.

  15. #15
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Advisory Committees should not have sole authority over antlerless hunts.
    Well its not like ONE AC has sole authority...

    each AC will vote yeah or neigh. and majority rules... as well a majority of AC's must vote Yeah to affirm another season.. for instance. 20A has 5 AC's that effect it... and requires a minimum of 3 to approve or reject them. the Majority AC"s vote is what is taken to the BOG who has ultimate say on them.
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  16. #16
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    Not trying to put ADFG on a pedestal at all guys. Bios spend an inordinate amount of time though trying to convince ACs to allow antlerless hunts. It gets pretty ugly at times.

    And while some areas do require multiple ACs to weigh in, that isn't the case everywhere. The way it works though, if in cases like Vince mentioned where it requires a majority of ACs, if we don't get that majority, there is absolutely nothing the Board of Game can then do, they can't allow the antlerless hunts.

    So yes, the Board of Game ultimately votes on passage once it goes to them, but it doesn't go to them without individual or majority AC votes to begin with. And the BOG won't vote no in my experience once antlerless hunts have been requested by ADFG and authorized by the ACs, that is just a rubber-stamp thing the way I see it.

  17. #17

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    My Personal Opinion
    After having sat in on more than a few BOG Hearings, ADF&G Spiels and A/C Meetings I come the the conclusion that:
    Bios caveat their Findings with stating they need additional studies/funding/assistance/surveys...EVERY TIME!!!
    A/C's have their finger on the pulse of what their members Actually SEE and KNOW on a daily basis. Most were in the field, the day preceeding the 'meeting'.
    The A/C's should absolutely have the final word....my ONLY heartburn with current policy is that of Local A/C's having to gain acceptance from distant ones. It should, IMO, be limited to the Local A/C to have the final authority for a hunt within their GMU.
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  18. #18
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    Unfortunately AC's do not always give the biologists reports equal weight in the decision making. As Vince said there are members of the AC that will vote against antlerless hunts no matter what, and many members who might vote according to the science are under heavy pressure from the small special interest groups that vote them in. Politics is Politics no matter were you go.

    the statistics from previous antlerless hunts show that only about 5% of moose taken are bulls who have dropped horns. the vast majority are cows, and since the any bull harvest has consistently been below harvest objectives, there is no real negative effect on bull populations from a management perspective.

    IMHO the hunts should be allowed when ever the science says it is needed in order to be as close as possible to management objectives. The reports from harvest data suggest that the moose population is not shrinking in 20A even with all of the hunts currently being done. The big problem seems to be getting moose harvested from certain areas where moose numbers are highest, but access is very very difficult, The only way to increase harvest in those areas is to allow winter harvest once snow cover is sufficient to allow snow-machine access. Then you have to make sure the hunters actually harvest from those areas. That is an enforcement issue.

    IMHO moose will move and spread out into areas that have lower moose density, do to harvest, otherwise areas that had high bull harvest in previous years would have no moose to harvest in later years. The problem with using hunter observations from the field to argue that there are not enough moose in any area is that hunting pressure pushes moose out of easy access areas into more remote areas. That doesn't mean there are less moose, it just means they are smart enough to avoid human hunting pressure when they can.

    So if the science supports harvest in a unit, the real question is how to do the hunt, not whether or not to do it IMHO. 20A is big, but it is not so big that moose will not migrate from one area to another if they are not pressured. In addition there are large areas of 20A that have no food due to recent burns, or very old growth. This not only cause strange population density issues but puts the herd at risk of crash if we have a bad winter or two.
    60% of men don't know what they have until they lose it
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  19. #19
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akfishfool
    Unfortunately AC's do not always give the biologists reports equal weight in the decision making. As Vince said there are members of the AC that will vote against antlerless hunts no matter what, and many members who might vote according to the science are under heavy pressure from the small special interest groups that vote them in. Politics is Politics no matter were you go.
    Andrew, thanks for the entire post, well said. This above sums up for me why ACs should not have sole authority to deny antlerless hunts.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    My Personal Opinion
    After having sat in on more than a few BOG Hearings, ADF&G Spiels and A/C Meetings I come the the conclusion that:
    Bios caveat their Findings with stating they need additional studies/funding/assistance/surveys...EVERY TIME!!!
    A/C's have their finger on the pulse of what their members Actually SEE and KNOW on a daily basis. Most were in the field, the day preceeding the 'meeting'.
    The A/C's should absolutely have the final word....my ONLY heartburn with current policy is that of Local A/C's having to gain acceptance from distant ones. It should, IMO, be limited to the Local A/C to have the final authority for a hunt within their GMU.
    If only this was the way it was. The 40 mile caribou plan would be a HELL of a lot easier to solve! Getting more and more AC's that want their "say". It is nuts that people that don't in live in the area want to "force" their way of thinking down the local's throats.

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