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Thread: Advice on FF & Engine Monitor Devices for 180B

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Default Advice on FF & Engine Monitor Devices for 180B

    I'm considering adding a Fuel Flow Monitor System and an engine Monitoring System for the 0-470k TCM engine. Right now I have the stock engine instruments 'cept for a digital EGT for one cylinder.

    I was wondering if you guys think this wld be advisable or not and have any recommendations pro and con?

    The reason I asked is because I read that due to the inefficiency of the fuel flow/distribution to the front two cylinders, anything more then the one EGT probe was not needed for proper operation of the engine.

    I did see you can get a composite system that will do the above plus oil pressure and temps.

    Thanks,

    Rick

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    O-470s don't need lots of instruments. That doesn't keep guys from adding them. If you like bells and whistles, buy bells and whistles. They won't make the plane work better but if you enjoy them? Go for it.

    If your plane came from down south it may not have the balance tube and vent tube insulated. Those are things you need to do.

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Pid View Post
    O-470s don't need lots of instruments. That doesn't keep guys from adding them. If you like bells and whistles, buy bells and whistles. They won't make the plane work better but if you enjoy them? Go for it.

    If your plane came from down south it may not have the balance tube and vent tube insulated. Those are things you need to do.
    PID - Well the fuel guages don't work correctly and I stink the FF Monitor output wld bring a level of confidence since it provides;

    Displays All These Functions:
    1. Total Fuel Used
    2. Fuel Remaining
    3. Endurance in Hours and Minutes
    4. Fuel Required to next Waypoint
    5. Fuel Reserve at Next Waypoint
    6. Nautical miles per Gallon

    So where's the procedure to insulate the tubes? I cld do it next week in a hanger I'm renting.

    Rick

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    A calibrated fuel dipstick and a watch will do more for your fuel knowledge than an instrument. I won't start an airplane until I've checked the fuel levels myself. Instuments or not.

    Ask your mechanic about insulating then tubes.

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    Member RocketRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Pid View Post
    A calibrated fuel dipstick and a watch will do more for your fuel knowledge than an instrument. I won't start an airplane until I've checked the fuel levels myself. Instuments or not.

    Ask your mechanic about insulating then tubes.
    Yeah I sticked it already and I always check too.

    Rick

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    I will never have another big bore Continental without a Six Cyl EGT/CHT monitor. The one I currently have is the JPInstruments EDM 700 with the Fuel Flow transducer. The peace of mind that comes with this is awesome. I have more than a few thousand hours behind 470 and 520 engines - my current engine is the 0470-K50 (PPONK). It virtually takes away the over-the-water-auto-rough when flying the Shelikof or the Homer to Kodiak route. Since we have stock fuel tanks, and a larger fuel burn, being able to lean properly - 50' lean of peak - (well OK on ONE cylinder anyways) - and actually measure the fuel burn is a great tool for long flights.

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    Just because I have it bookmarked, here's a good old article about 0-470s.

    http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182885-1.html

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    i have been looking at the jpi 700 also for my c170 with 0-360. all i have now is egt and oil temp and pres. it would be very nice to know what the cht is doing and have a little bit of comfort and trust in them. the fuel moniter would be neat but i almost always fly by stick and watch but it would be nice to know how close i am to the gizmo on the dash.

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    I have been flying 470's 520'sand 540's for 20+ years, and I think the JPI 700 is a very valuable piece of equipment. You can be a little bit more precise when leaning, but to me the bigger picture, you can see trouble starting earlier. Like what beaver driver Said, It gives you a little more confidence when your in those areas where "I hope she doesn't quit now, cause I got no options!!"
    It's funny, my old man, thought my airplane was full of "bells and whistles" until he flew it with me, saw how usefull all of them were. Then one day, we're both loaded up on floats and he can't get off the water. So he has me try it, nope, I don't know whats wrong with it, but that engine runs fine, but has a serious lack of power. We unload it, he flies it home solo, I take 2 days to make 2 trips. Come to find out 2 valve guides worn, and multiple cracks on mutliple cylinders. NOW he believes in the bells and whistles, cause now he can see ALL clynders and what they are doing. He may change his leaning techniques a bit, but like I said he could see the problem coming if he had those gauges.
    Im my opinion, more information is better, IF you know what your looking at. If you take the time to learn how to use them, they are welll worth the money.
    just my $.02

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    Fuel totalizers are not approved as primary replacements for fuel quantity indicators, are they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Pid View Post
    Fuel totalizers are not approved as primary replacements for fuel quantity indicators, are they?
    Good ideas & examples. Thanks all.

    PID - The 180B I bhght was annualed on7.10.2010. Neither of the fuel guages worked correctly but it was approved for flight. Go figure..

    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Pid View Post
    Fuel totalizers are not approved as primary replacements for fuel quantity indicators, are they?
    Nope - in fact this one has a specific placard against it. However, it is WAY more accurate than either the stock Cessna gauges or the electronic ones (that use the Cessna sending units) that I have installed. Go figure.

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    There's usually a contrast in attitudes about engine monitors between owners and their mechanics. I haven't met a mechanic yet that likes them. When I handed my own mechanic a JPI700 to install in my own 180 he rolled his eyes and bit his tongue. After flying my plane for 15 years without the monitor and now a year with, I don't think a monitor is an important instrument. In fact all it's done is validate I'd been running and leaning my engine correctly all those years. Now it's just an expensive CHT gauge. STC'd as a primary replacement cost me extra, too. I added a carb temp probe during installation. I've viewed the carb temp exactly once. It also validated what had always believed was true. So far I haven't had any probe failures. My mechanic tells me to expect some, although he eliminates the little screws and ring terminals because he believes that's the biggest point of trouble. When I do see one cylinder drop off it's normal temps I'll likely ignore the info unless the engine is running rough. If it runs rough I'll deal with it immediately. No different than pre-monitor.

    At the same time I installed new MacFarlane fuel senders and a Aerospace Logic 100 series fuel gauge. 1 gallon accuracy from full to empty. Perfectly accurate so far. I still use a stick before I fly. Aerospace Logic oil and electric gauges, too. I like them. They are a pleasing match to the JPI bar graph display. Now Aerospace Logic has 200 Series instruments available with the new green line appearance similar to the newer engine monitors. Also nice. If you haven't been into an instrument shop in the last year or so you're not going to believe how good the new instrument displays are. My panel is all I want it to be but the new stuff coming out is fun to look at.

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    Member BeaverDriver's Avatar
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    hmmmm..... no contrast in attitude here. My mechanic loves the JPI. Of course I am my mechanic - and IA. I have used the download function of the JPI twice to check cylinder anomaly's. It gives a whole lot more information than a compression test, followed by a borescope, followed by rocker box cover removal, engine oil samples, etc etc. Easier just to download the data and see what the cylinder is actually doing. I would probably never spend the 4k+ for a gauge that merely pleases my sense of aesthetics. Like any other instrument or equipment carried in our planes it must serve a function. I used to think that a chart, compass, and watch were all I needed for Nav too. Sure reduces the workload to have a GPS.

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    I would probably never spend the 4k+ for a gauge that merely pleases my sense of aesthetics.
    There are several monitors available on the market. The reason I chose the JPI over the others was primarily aesthetic. Same for the Aerospace Logic products. I prefer the way they present information. That presentation is consistent among all my engine instruments. Blending function and form is precisely why so many brands exist. Pick your own preference for your own reasons. I looked hard at the EI MVP-50 and the JPI 830. Too star wars for me. That doesn't mean the next guy shouldn't like them. Those who do could argue those of us with 700s are using dinosaur equipment. Good enough for me.

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    beaver driver, I am right there with ya, and so is my mechanic. Lets see when was the last time I did and ADF approach?? The GPS is soooo much more accurate. I'd like the engine technology to catch up with the times. I've heard there is word of FADEC coming for these engines, anyone heard of this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBLOOMA View Post
    beaver driver, I am right there with ya, and so is my mechanic. Lets see when was the last time I did and ADF approach?? The GPS is soooo much more accurate. I'd like the engine technology to catch up with the times. I've heard there is word of FADEC coming for these engines, anyone heard of this?
    CMV1?...lol

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    Talking On Second Thought

    Whelp,... I've mulled this over and over and came to the conclusion I don't need all that extra instrumentation to fly safely.

    I'll add a good clock timer and the fuel flow scanner and call it good. Install a engine pre-heater and be good to go.

    All the items I was considering except for the fuel flow scanner are redundant.

    Thanks for the advice.

    Rick

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