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Thread: What is your opinion on the point system for drawings?

  1. #1
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    Default What is your opinion on the point system for drawings?

    Oregon and Colorado uses the point system. Should Alaska?

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    Default More info

    The reason I ask is I finally drew the TMA ds102 tag this year after putting in for the last 14 years. I know people that drew on there first time, is this fair?

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    For sheep, if it's a draw, I'd rather see a point system.

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    Default Point System

    I think it would be a headache and the current system works. You tried 14 years to get a TOK tag and finally got one - Congrats! However with the chance of drawing it at 2% or so 14 years isn't bad. If you got a preference point for each species would you only put in for Tok or would you put 3 choices? What if your preference point got you your third choice not TOK. Would you start fresh again? Make sense?

    I think the system works, folks just need to be realistic in the tags they put in for. You aren't going to draw much if you put in for a bunch of hunts with a 2% chance. I like to think of it as a diversified portfolio when I put in for tags. The dream hunts for the first two and a hunt with good odds for the third choice. My six years in AK - 2 moose tags, 2 goat tags, 2 sheep tags, and 1 caribou tag.

    All said, congrats on the hunt, you'll have a blast.

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    Default

    Colorado use's the point system and seems to be a fair way to give everyone a chance to hunt trophy areas. Just last year the DOW intrduced a system that if you drew a certain hunt that took a certain amount of points to draw it only took that many points from your stash. There are a lot of guys down here that have 10 and 12 points and use to loose all of them if the hunt they wanted only required 3 points. So now if you only need 3 points for the hunt the DOW takes 3 plus an addtional 1 for that tag. We still have a strage set up for sheep and goat. You have to have atleast 3 points to enter the lottery then every addtional point up to 4 is added as a weighted point. After your 3 points and 4 weighted points your at the mercy of the license gods. I know a guy that has had all the points he could accumulate for over 7 years without drawing a tag. A little complicated but works good for residents and game managment.

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    Default nope

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    The reason I ask is I finally drew the TMA ds102 tag this year after putting in for the last 14 years. I know people that drew on there first time, is this fair?
    tv321, the draw percentage for sheep hunt DS102 is 3%. That means the average person will wait 33 1/3 years before drawing a tag. You beat the average by over half so I'd say it wasn't fair. But it was equitable, because everybody that applied for that hunt had the same chance as you to be drawn.

    If that hunt went to preference points. It would still take 33 1/3 years for everyone in the original application (the first year of preference points) to be drawn. About 3,000 people applied this winter for the hunt. So anyone that started applying after the first year would have to get 33 1/3 years of preference points to have a chance to be drawn. In the mean time, people would realise that to be drawn for that hunt, they'd need to start getting preference points ASAP so a lot more people would be applying just to get preference points so the wait would even be longer. The average age of a hunter would be somewhere between 50 and 70. They'd need hunter first aid stations on every ridge.

    If you really want the odds on the drawing hunts to improve, submit a proposal to ADF&G to reduce the number of hunts a person can apply for per species to 1 instead of 3. Then people have to put in for the hunt they really want. If it turns out most of them still want to apply for TMA tags, that makes your odds better for one of the other drawings.

    At least with the current system, all hunters young and old have the same chance at being drawn.

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    Default smoke screen

    Quote Originally Posted by colodan View Post
    Colorado use's the point system and seems to be a fair way to give everyone a chance to hunt trophy areas. Just last year the DOW intrduced a system that if you drew a certain hunt that took a certain amount of points to draw it only took that many points from your stash. There are a lot of guys down here that have 10 and 12 points and use to loose all of them if the hunt they wanted only required 3 points. So now if you only need 3 points for the hunt the DOW takes 3 plus an addtional 1 for that tag. We still have a strage set up for sheep and goat. You have to have atleast 3 points to enter the lottery then every addtional point up to 4 is added as a weighted point. After your 3 points and 4 weighted points your at the mercy of the license gods. I know a guy that has had all the points he could accumulate for over 7 years without drawing a tag. A little complicated but works good for residents and game managment.
    All preference point hunts are smoke screens. They don't increase your mathematical chances of being drawn. If 3000 people apply for 100 tags, your odds are still about 3% of being drawn. What preference points do is encourage people to apply for hunts just to get preference points. Guess who that benefits? Not hunters......states make money off drawings. In Alaska it's $5 for most hunt apps, and more for others. See the attraction of encouraging more people to apply? In some states, you can even buy more preference points. See now? It's all about money, not making it more fair for hunters.

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    Member lawdog's Avatar
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    Default Twodux

    You got it!!!

  9. #9

    Default Points

    The point system is a flawed system at best and may even be worse than just an open pot luck drawing. I put in for a non-resident antelope tag in the Wheatland, Wyo. area. Six years and no tag, I finally gave up. Other people from my local, drew them same area I wanted and had no points. So, Have little faith in a points system. Just give me an open drawing, I'll take an even chance. I don't have any luck on slot machines either.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

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    Default These Points Discussions are...."pointless"

    Alaska is NOT Warshington, Oreegon, Coloraido, Wyomin, or UTAH'r. If its the points game you wish to play - you can have alot of fun in those states. Go Knock yerself out!

    the "is it fair" argument gets used over and over....and ya know

    it IS FAIR

    its the FAIREST system around - each person has an equal chance to draw - PERIOD. You cant much more fair than that.

    be happy that you can still hunt every game animal up here without drawing a tag - I sure am

    Hey I got a great idea, how about we demand that all the casino's in Vegas go to a point system for payoff on the slots....those that play more should obviously get paid more right?

  11. #11
    New member mtcop71's Avatar
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    Default percentages

    Is there a % of non residents that get sheep tags and the rest go to residents... Like 20% of the tags go to non-residents and the rest to residents.. I am not opposed to a point system for non residents only, but none for residents if we get 80% of the tags

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    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default all the same

    There is no difference between nons and res. In therory, all 120 TOK permits could go to non residents

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    New member mtcop71's Avatar
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    Default What!!

    Now that is crap,,, I think there should be a percentage of tags that go strictly to residents, can you imagine if all the tags went to non residents..IMHO ther needs to be a set limit for non residents. I can't believe this hasn't been brought up, or maybe it has and I don't know about it.

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    Member Alaska Gray's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    Oregon and Colorado uses the point system. Should Alaska?

    This is going to get interesting. You just open a can of warms

    I think it should be reworked alittle. IE if you draw a moose tag next year you are not allow to put in for any moose tag.

    OR. Put a time period on it. 2 years for each animla tag you win.

    What ever we do we can not make everyone happy.
    Living the Alaskan Dream
    Gary Keller
    Anchorage, AK

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    Default once in a lifetime

    I dont want to see this turn into non-res bashing but in all fairness I think there should be a cap on non-res permits for most drawings. Most other states have this and every one still gets a fair shot. Using the ever popular TMA as an example. 120 permits. All non-res applicants apply for twenty of the permits. All res have an equal chance at the other hundred. Just my thoughts. I also believe that on Bison and Musx-Ox that these should be once in a lifetime if succesful in a kill. I was lucky enough to take a Musk-Ox and see no reason to apply again. Still looking for my Bison though. Could see a problem with cow/bull tags on Bison. If I drew a cow tag and was succesful I would still want to try for a bull. Maybe if succesful on a certain tag in that case. Just my thoughts though.

  16. #16
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    Default Way to go

    Quote Originally Posted by mtcop71 View Post
    Is there a % of non residents that get sheep tags and the rest go to residents... Like 20% of the tags go to non-residents and the rest to residents.. I am not opposed to a point system for non residents only, but none for residents if we get 80% of the tags
    I think this may be the way to go for our drawing permit hunts. We've seen this option arise in multiple threads recently. I think it would be better to cap non-res % and scrap the point system.


    Tim

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    Default Points

    Remenber there are two types of point systems. Bonus points and perference points. Each bonus point allows the enterant another chance, where as perference points only allows those in the very top to draw. Montana did away with perference points and went to bonus points. Idaho does not use the point system.

  18. #18
    New member akhunter02's Avatar
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    Default its not broke

    so why try and fix it, the current system is equally fair to everyone who applies, we all have exactly the same chance to draw each time we apply, why would we want to change it, except for limiting the number of permits that can go to Non resident hunters. And Id go as far as to say that any draw that has less than 10 total pemits, only residents can draw them

  19. #19
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    Default Non-res drawing caps-interesting data

    Here is some interesting data for the current drawings for what i'll call the big three:

    DS 102 - 100 tags 7 non-residents drew (easy one 7 %)

    DS 203 - 75 tags 7 non-residents drew (9.3%)

    DS 204 - 75 tags 11 non-residents drew (14.6%)

    So, in all actuality at least for the drawings, the numbers don't seem that bad IMHO. These three probably have the highest non-res percentages at least compared to the Chugach Units (too many to do the math).

    That said, I will venture to guess that a few or maybe a lot of the non-resident people drawing the tags are military folks who lived here for a bit, got residency and then were transfered to another post or base. These folks can still claim Alaska residency even though they don't live here anymore and still continue to have the benefits associated with hunting here - even though they have a non-Alaska address.

    Summary - although non-res get some tags and I would venture to guess it isn't as bad as we think considering the hard numbers and the military factor.

  20. #20
    New member crittergetter's Avatar
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    Default Considerations....

    As a past resident of Colorado, I can see good and bad in their system...and now in Alaska's system too.

    With the inception of the Colorado preference point system years ago, people began applying for premium elk, deer and antelope tags...all on a straight preference point system (those with the most points win). I don't think they realized at the time that the first tier of applicants would monopolize these tags for 15 or possibly even 20 years. In other words, if at the inception of the system you had 50 applicants applying for 3 tags...and they all continue to apply for those 3 tags, it would take nearly 17 years just to accommodate that group. The problem with this is incentive...what's the incentive for new hunters to even begin applying for such a tag knowing that they are chasing an uncatchable dream?

    On the flip side...no point system of any kind in Alaska does not provide ANY kind of preferential treatment to those candidates who have never had the pleasure of a unit 14C or TMA sheep tag, Kodiak brown bear, etc. The problem with this is I know people that have drawn TMA twice in 3-5 years...and others; never.

    ------------------------------

    The best approach as I see it is Colorado's premium species drawing (sheep, goat, moose). It's a combination approach requiring a waiting period to be considered for a tag (3 years)...and then giving the applicant an 'extra' chance for every year they apply after the waiting period. This method insures reasonable commitment for a specific tag...and gives the advantage to those in it for the long term; without eliminating all chances of ever drawing for new hunters. And if you are fortunate enough to harvest an animal on one of these coveted tags, an additional waiting period applies before you can draw that specific tag again.

    Sounds fair to me. Thoughts?

    I'm very thankful that AK does allow you to hunt almost every species every year...but it would be favorable to 'spread the wealth' on premium tags through some type of preference.
    Last edited by crittergetter; 02-15-2007 at 15:36.

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