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Thread: youth bow hunting and 40 lb limit on the haul road

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default youth bow hunting and 40 lb limit on the haul road

    okay so... we all know that there is a minimum draw wight of 40lb for hunting caribou...

    we also know that many kids have bows that will reach the minimum draw weight once a certain draw length can be achieved.

    and until that point they can not bow hunt... so i have this question to pose to all of our bow hunters, traditionalist, compounder's and the like...

    what would you all say to a permit similar to disabled folks to allow a youth age 10-15ish?? to hunt with a cross bow until size, age, strength, is achieved to hunt with a full sized hunting bow and arrow? nothing perminent... and before you ask... Hows a youth going to draw a cross bow... THEIR NOT.. mom or dad is as they are SUPPOSED to be along anyway...certification of proficiency is still required.

    1, allows more hunters to help meet an unmet harvest quota
    2, allows early start with similar equipment
    3, is already allowed for adults that can not draw a bow with disabliity...
    4, cross bows do not really increase range of bow hunt substancually... and can be used on a tripod for small framed youth..

    would you agree? would you take your children along if they could?

    gonna leave this hang for sometime before any action is taken... would rather an honest discussion rather then the typical horse crap of wheels, recurve... what bow hunting really means blaa blaa blaa.... would it be worth while? it is not a special hunt... just a permit for those that are unable at a point in their life they want to the most...
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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Vince, do you not recall me asking this very same question? Got TONS of bashing from the archery elitists...

    I am all for it, and would encourage the same be added to early season Archery moose hunts in the valley.

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    I am not for it at all. While growing up you reach milestones. Mature enough to hunt with dad. Then with your own weapon. Small game and eventually bigger game. It is a natural progression that will end in us all having to one day, only hunt with a partner, hunt closer to home, small game and sadly eventually hang up the bow. We already have way too many ways of side steping the process of maturing, gaining new resopnosibilities and learning new leasons. Why open a loop hole for crossbow hunting just so a few kids can side step waiting a year or two? And no I wouldn't suport the same for senior citizens either.
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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    BTW Vince number 4 in your arguments shows you have never fiered a cross bow or know there history. 150 pound draw weights and scopes are not uncomon in modern crossbows and proficantcy at 100 yards is no more dificult than with a rifle.
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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    The bigger question is why keep people from an opportunity that the resource can clearly support.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick P View Post
    BTW Vince number 4 in your arguments shows you have never fiered a cross bow or know there history. 150 pound draw weights and scopes are not uncomon in modern crossbows and proficantcy at 100 yards is no more difficult than with a rifle.
    and scopes are not allowed in weapon restricted hunts... though i don't own any i have played with many.. and the most average effective range is 40-60 yards... seeing as how i shoot 85 yards with my compound... thats not a big leap anyway...

    and you have obviously NOT read the law.. as seniors and those with disability can already get a cross bow permit to hunt in a archery only hunt...


    like i requested i do not want and argument on this... just a why or why not? thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick P View Post
    I am not for it at all. While growing up you reach milestones. Mature enough to hunt with dad. Then with your own weapon. Small game and eventually bigger game. It is a natural progression that will end in us all having to one day, only hunt with a partner, hunt closer to home, small game and sadly eventually hang up the bow. We already have way too many ways of side steping the process of maturing, gaining new resopnosibilities and learning new leasons. Why open a loop hole for crossbow hunting just so a few kids can side step waiting a year or two? And no I wouldn't suport the same for senior citizens either.
    I have to agree with Rick P. I don't think making things easier is the right thing for kids. As he said, there are a wide variety of things in our lives that require us to achieve a certain level, whether it is age, education, or physical strength. I believe there is a significant difference between making accomodations for those with physical disabilities and those who just haven't reached their natural level of physical maturity. Just my opinion on the subject.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I see this argument all the time, yet the same kid can go out on any other hunt in the state with a rifle. To me it is more about eliminating the potential competition than it is anything to do with the kids level of competence.

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    One dose not have to use a scope Vince. I know the disabled and elderly can use them. That dosent mean I suport it for the elderly, not really sure about the disabled either. And if you post something I find inacurate that is relavant to the topic I'll corect it. As you feel you just did with me. Sorry but 15 yards may not be much of a leap for you but it sure as blazes is for little Timmy. However that isnt the issue at hand. I stand by my opinon that we grow through eraning responsibilities through hard work and maturing. How we learn as children to accept our limitations is at least as important as how we use our abilities. Lowering the bar to jump a few kids forward a year won't help them.


    If you didn't want to discuss this why did you post it? You asked for opinons and reasons, that is what you got.
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    I see this argument all the time, yet the same kid can go out on any other hunt in the state with a rifle. To me it is more about eliminating the potential competition than it is anything to do with the kids level of competence.
    well the only reason i am asking is i was approached with it to bring up at the next state wide meeting... one of the issues is the inability for bow hunters to meet the harvest requirement year after year on the haul road... thats why the limit is NOW 5... Rick how have you done up there this year? last? if Gunther was able to tag along would you take him... those are the questions i am asking...
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    never mind i see we posted same time
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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    I see this argument all the time, yet the same kid can go out on any other hunt in the state with a rifle. To me it is more about eliminating the potential competition than it is anything to do with the kids level of competence.

    My father let me hunt with a rifle long before he did a bow, "the bow requiers more dedication, practice and hunting skill" I tend to agree with him. I eliminate the competition by walking in the snow for a few hours without any problem. Also what message do we give kids when we say here are the rules.........accept we'll bend them for you cause your little?

    Again how you accept your limitations is at least as important as how you use your abilities.
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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Besides if we are really after opening up the hunt for kids, women and girly men why aren't we talking about lowering the minimum draw weight? Given the extra speed of a compound and the historical effectivness of say a 35 pound bow. Heck why not lower for faster compounds but unchanged for trad? Really though most kids ready to hunt caribou can draw 40 pounds.
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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Didnt do too well last year or this. Had Gear issues and weather problems mostly. Thats what I get for hunting in October and early April I geuss. I did take Gunther on last august's hunt, at 3 he stayed in camp. He has been doing small game tag alongs his whole life, hope he can be quiet enough for the same with big game next year. He'll earn his chance at harvesting a haul road caribou when he has learned to meet the limits of the hunt. I have tons of nonhunters with me every year, you don't have to pull a trigger to learn on a hunt.
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    Vince, I'm not sure about the haul road, or youth hunts, but if your disabled.... go talk to the F&G warden and he will possibly approve a crossbow for a archery hunt. (this was was I was told directly, after asking what my possibilities are in archery seasons for moose though.. FWIW. as I cannot work a bow.

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    I see this argument all the time, yet the same kid can go out on any other hunt in the state with a rifle. To me it is more about eliminating the potential competition than it is anything to do with the kids level of competence.

    I tyried I really did but LuJon like it or not this infeers that I am a lying selfish bastrad. I resent it greatly!
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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick P View Post
    I tyried I really did but LuJon like it or not this infeers that I am a lying selfish bastrad. I resent it greatly!
    Rick, I am not trying to attack you, I adamantly disagree with your stance. I can see your point in regard to this issue, but to me your point is something that should be personal between you and your kid. I don't agree with your ideology being used as the bench mark for the regulation of the resource. I think it should be up to each kids parents to decide and as long as the resource can handle the increased opportunity then I support it. It the kid can pass the bow hunter safety course w/ his x-bow and the parents feel comfortable with him hunting then he should be good to go. At 16 he should have to re-qualify with a bow in the field portion. The state should be worried about the sustainability of the herd and the safety of the hunt. If it meets both of those requirements then I am all for it. Personally I would like to see a shotgun and black powder zone 1 mile off the Haul road. We have not made quota on that herd in years, the opportunity is there.

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    OK since I have always considered you a friend the nice stuff first. Ultimately the state standrads should be viewed as the bare minimum. Gunther like his father and his father before him will have to meet all dads standars first. Including being physically able to join the hunt. Wheather that means walking ten miles or pulling an apropriate weight bow. My problem with cross bows is they are not a lesser weapon. And in my veiw alowing them for kids dosen't help kids. If you can't draw 40 pounds then I sugest you work out for a year, I, my wife, my brother, neice and nephew all did. In fact I had to twice once when I was a kid then for several years while I was in theropy after breaking my back. Besides the extra feild time under the watch of a more experianced hunter really helped build bascic skills.

    I am very proud of the Dalton hwy special use area. I know I have the parinoia of the oil companies to thank but having the largest archery only area in the world in my home state is a source of great pride for me. I see no reason to jeporidize such a unique hunt for a few kids who'd do better to learn a bit of patients.

    OK I think it was unconious and not directed at me but here it gose. Your post was in response to my opinion. Only an increadibely self centered person would want to limit any qualified hunter. Only a real SOB and coward would hide behind statments about kids to hide his real agenda. Again this was in response to my opinion, I know you didn't mean it that way but can't you see how it got under my collar a bit?
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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Rick, This is not the first thread on this or a very similar topic. You are not alone and though you were one of the first to sound off here your viewpoint is not unique. I simply disagree with it as I do with all special interest hunts across the board. I have grown to accept early bow seasons because it expands the season beyond that which would be available to offer in a general season. I also support them in areas where safety is the primary concern, like Ft Rich and other metro areas like Delta, FMA or Palmer/wasilla. That said I am all for limiting these special hunts to areas where necessary and expanding eligibility so that other hunters can be involved as much as possible within the sustainability of the resource and public safety.

    I have pondered this a great deal and can come up with no legitimate reason to keep trying to segregate hunters beyond selfishness. I look forward to getting back into Archery myself but I am not an elitist, I don't feel that I have some ethical or moral superiority over other types of hunters. I believe that hunters of all backgrounds and styles should be able to hunt as much as the game will support. If x-bows give a kid a chance to participate when he otherwise couldn't then I support that. Why would anyone not want a kid who has proven proficient and safe with his weapon not to be allowed to use it?

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Lujon I basically agree with that. Up here there is no legitimate reason to have an early anything season. I am more than happy to hunt with a bow next to rifle hunters. Read any of my posts on duck hunting. But your argument is a double edged sword you want to make a "special for kids" because they can't physically meet the demands of a haul road hunt. The Dalton hwy special use area is again unique, if we are forced to limit weapons in that hunt to gain access from the oil producers then I say lets celibrate a one of a kind experiance for those who have what it takes. Besides if the road was open to all hunting methods we would quickly be arguing if it should be a comunity, tier I or tier II hunt. 40 pounds and the ability to ditch dive are low standards I see no reason to open them further.

    Cant argue with the last paragraph in normal areas, Dalton hwy isn't a normal hunt. When they achieve the physical and mental go ahead from parents and state I'll gladly welcome them to the haul road fraternity. Whats wrong with setting the bar a bit high, engouraging excellence and growth?
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