Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 57

Thread: State wide mentality

  1. #1
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Deltajct
    Posts
    2,499

    Default State wide mentality

    These threads have been going on for awhile.

    List what part of the state you are from and what you would like to see happen.

    Everybody says that the state is thier playground, and it is, but this state is the size of 1/3 of the lower 48, Think About That. If you were in the lower 48 say in calif. would you be able to go to Col. and take game without a permit? Would you be able to hunt at all?

    This last bou hunt reminds me of something that would happen if the city of L.A. went out into the dessert and just shot anything that moved, wait they already did that and now they don't have enough left to go around. I know thats a little extreme because of the pioners that helped to deplete the game pop. ( see where this is going?)

    I see the people that need the game for there lifestyle, and then I see the people that say hey I get the chance to live out my dream, and then they want more and will take more than one should.

    I'm all for anybody going out and getting meat as long as they don't abuse the quota the land can support.

    I was in Calif and was taking a trip across the mountains from Reno back into Calif. and what I saw was amazing, there was a tent every 50' along a 5 mile stretch of road. Everyone wearing orange ( Said to sell that I would never hunt like this.) ( I was actully afraid for me and my wifes life.)

    I was against the cow hunt to the extreme that they took it here in Delta, but it did'nt stop alot of people from coming down to help them achive thier goal without looking at the data.

    So I ask you what are your hunting goals? Fire away.

  2. #2
    Member Erik in AK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    2,008

    Default

    To see our game lands managed in a way that promotes productive habitat, and the species themselves managed for long term sustained yield.
    If cave men had been trophy hunters the Wooly Mammoth would be alive today

  3. #3
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    Come on RS. Sure the state is huge but we have a road system that covers about the size of the state of California which pretty much blows your argument out of the water. Think about this, Cantwell cannot support a grocery store. Any idea why? I will give you a hint.... Costco and Sams in ANCHORAGE. This may be a news flash but all on the road system both hunt AND shop in the same places.

  4. #4
    Member JOAT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Soldotna, ALASKA since '78
    Posts
    3,720

    Default

    Using that analogy, there is no reason why they need a grocery store in San Deigo if they have one in LA. Compare the road system in AK with the same sized patch of land down in America. Our road system is a joke by comparison.
    Winter is Coming...

    Go GeocacheAlaska!

  5. #5
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JOAT View Post
    Using that analogy, there is no reason why they need a grocery store in San Deigo if they have one in LA. Compare the road system in AK with the same sized patch of land down in America. Our road system is a joke by comparison.
    No that is not the same at all. They have a grocery store in in San Diego because people shop there. That is not the case in Cantwell, people CHOOSE to shop in Anchorage or "L.A." per your example.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    These threads have been going on for awhile.

    .....List what part of the state you are from and what you would like to see happen.
    So I ask you what are your hunting goals? Fire away.

    16B we need habitat that is more favorable to moose than black bears. In the time I have lived here I have watched the alder over take willow almost expotentually alder makes good black bear habatit but lousy for moose. So far we have a fairly agressive predator control program out here hpoefuly it continue. I would also like to see the BOG go forward with a black bear snaring season at least in predator control areas.

    I know the guides aren't going to like this one but we need to manage game to meet the needs of Alaskan. Alaskas game, at least ungulants should be manage for food not trophies.
    Chuck

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Come on RS. Sure the state is huge but we have a road system that covers about the size of the state of California which pretty much blows your argument out of the water. Think about this, Cantwell cannot support a grocery store. Any idea why? I will give you a hint.... Costco and Sams in ANCHORAGE. This may be a news flash but all on the road system both hunt AND shop in the same places.
    Every Alaskan with a post office, dirt strip or airport shops Costco and Sams. The folks on the road system just have to pay the full cost of transportation and those off the road system, get theirs subsidized by those living on the road system. As it has always been.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  8. #8
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hiline View Post
    16B we need habitat that is more favorable to moose than black bears. In the time I have lived here I have watched the alder over take willow almost expotentually alder makes good black bear habatit but lousy for moose. So far we have a fairly agressive predator control program out here hpoefuly it continue. I would also like to see the BOG go forward with a black bear snaring season at least in predator control areas.

    I know the guides aren't going to like this one but we need to manage game to meet the needs of Alaskan. Alaskas game, at least ungulants should be manage for food not trophies.
    You live there, would you support "controlled" burns in 16B? How about logging?

  9. #9
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,599

    Default

    Wrangell and all is well. Folks know when out of town hunters show up so most game stays with the locals. Our Salvation Army fills in for Lujon supposed super store everyone can get to.If we get a road off the island we want it to go to Canada not Anchorage. We would like to see oil shut down so Alaska can get back to being Alaska
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

  10. #10
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    AW, my reference was strictly for the road system. The comparison between road system "subsistence" and remote "subsistence" is night and day. Simple fact is supply and demand rules the day. For you guys off the road system you aren't likely to be inundated with hunters unless you have robust game numbers, simply because folks ain't gonna pay $$$ to go hunt something that ain't there! On the road system we all migrate to where the game or fish is. Rural folks head to "town" every 2-4 months or so and buy in bulk then head back to the "village". I live closer to "town" so I go every month or two and stock up. I also migrate up to Copper river, down to Kasilof, or right up the road to fish creek to get my fish for the year. Then I check close to home for moose and if I don't find anything then I will "migrate" out to where they are in better quantities. Same thing with bou, there aren't many around the valley so I will head up to where they are. I honestly don't see how this is any different today than it was 100 years ago when the native tribes were doing the same thing via canoe. I guess the one glaring dif is that I have a fair complexion.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    You live there, would you support "controlled" burns in 16B? How about logging?
    That would be a tough one there a lot of homes and cabins scattered through the unit. Mine is pretty well landscaped to help protect our place from wildfire but a lot aren't. The biggest problem around my place is the alder I think replacing alder with willow mixed with new growth birch and cottonwood. The only places where willow excells is old beaver ponds. If controlled burns will work I would probably sweat it out and go for it. I doubt logging would be more than pulp wood but may help some.
    I think our best bet is to get rid of black bear habitat and replace it with moose habitat while hammering on the black bear and wolves.
    Chuck

  12. #12
    Member sameyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Kenai, Alaska
    Posts
    269

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    AW, my reference was strictly for the road system. The comparison between road system "subsistence" and remote "subsistence" is night and day. Simple fact is supply and demand rules the day. For you guys off the road system you aren't likely to be inundated with hunters unless you have robust game numbers, simply because folks ain't gonna pay $$$ to go hunt something that ain't there! On the road system we all migrate to where the game or fish is. Rural folks head to "town" every 2-4 months or so and buy in bulk then head back to the "village". I live closer to "town" so I go every month or two and stock up. I also migrate up to Copper river, down to Kasilof, or right up the road to fish creek to get my fish for the year. Then I check close to home for moose and if I don't find anything then I will "migrate" out to where they are in better quantities. Same thing with bou, there aren't many around the valley so I will head up to where they are. I honestly don't see how this is any different today than it was 100 years ago when the native tribes were doing the same thing via canoe. I guess the one glaring dif is that I have a fair complexion.

    Kenai, in day to day life I have tried to subscribe to the believe that if what one is doing would be considered reasonable by reasonable people, then it was probably okay. For example, a person residing in a truly remote setting needs a moose (insert whatever animal you want) to feed the family, that is reasonable and no reasonable person would argue that. The rest of us also have to eat. Is it reasonable to deny a young couple who just moved to (pick an out of the way place like Cantwell, Paxson, wherever) a opportunity for a caribou because they haven’t traditionally used the area? I have no dog in the fight in the Unit 13 caribou issue. At the age of 12, in 1971, I went up there with my father and my uncle and witnessed the “Denali Firing Line” and will never participate in that again. But it seems a bit ridiculous that any Alaska resident cannot apply for a permit. Is it reasonable to accept that every person who has chosen to reside in semi-rural setting and not participate in “normal employment” should be granted a “need.” It takes money to buy whiskey; is it reasonable to grant these folks who are not contributing nearly as much as us lowly urban residents more privileges? I don’t think so.
    What Lujon refers to regarding the road system and the various migrations that take place is absolutely correct and thus, Alaskans should not be segmented by all of the various regulations that prohibit this person and that person, blah, blah. Rather, the regulations should allow for Alaska residents to participate, be that via drawing permit or open season. Witness the various dip netting that goes on around the state. This is a reasonable use of the surplus fish we have available to us. No, as a Kenai resident I do not like what has happened to the Kenai in July because of this but I cannot argue that it isn’t a reasonable use. Rarely do we see the regulation of seasons as a management tool, i.e., if the particular animal in that area can only sustain a couple of days of hunting pressure, then that may be an option that allows all to participate.
    At the same time, with the annual migrations to the road system for grouse, is it reasonable to continue the limit at ten birds a day. I don’t think so, these areas get too much pressure and while we are not hurting the overall population, we are hurting the opportunity for others to participate, particularly youth.
    Is it reasonable that every fire on the Kenai in recent years has been surpressed when some could have easily continued to burn with no harm to residents and created better moose habitat, which is exactly how moose habitat has developed over history.
    With the ever increasing pressure on "trophy" animals is it reasonable for any hunter to harvest more than one or two Dall Sheep or Mountain Goat in a lifetime; I don't think it is. Guess I am getting a bit long winded here but it seems there is reasonable solutions to what we as hunters face in the future. But reasonable is rarely commiserate with special interest so who knows.

  13. #13
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Deltajct
    Posts
    2,499

    Default

    Lujon, You seem to get upset over these threads, it's like you want to challange anybody for your right to hunt anywhere its legal for as many permits ( or reg hunts ) you have. The question I asked what was your mind set, and you pretty much are showing yours.

    You and I have have not seen eye to eye on alot of things. < smiles>

    I applaud you for getting your family out there and making a memeory, but where do you think this state will be 30 years from now when you are taking your Grand kids out?

  14. #14
    Member AlpineEarl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Usually somewhere I don't want to be.
    Posts
    408

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hiline View Post
    The biggest problem around my place is the alder I think replacing alder with willow mixed with new growth birch and cottonwood. The only places where willow excells is old beaver ponds. If controlled burns will work I would probably sweat it out and go for it. I doubt logging would be more than pulp wood but may help some.
    I think our best bet is to get rid of black bear habitat and replace it with moose habitat while hammering on the black bear and wolves.
    What? Are you thinking building one of those fancy Texas type game farms? How tall are you thinking the fence has to go? Tilling it an putting in food plots would help too. Beans and maybe some winter wheat.

  15. #15
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    Lujon, You seem to get upset over these threads, it's like you want to challange anybody for your right to hunt anywhere its legal for as many permits ( or reg hunts ) you have. The question I asked what was your mind set, and you pretty much are showing yours.

    You and I have have not seen eye to eye on alot of things. < smiles>

    I applaud you for getting your family out there and making a memeory, but where do you think this state will be 30 years from now when you are taking your Grand kids out?
    It isn't just about my right, it is about the equal opportunity for all Alaskans to hunt anywhere in the state for a fair opportunity at filling their freezer based on their own ability in the field.

    Where will Alaska be in 30 years? Hard to tell since I don't know what the economy will look like in 30 days. We could have another 80's style economic meltdown and mass exodus from the state. Ideally we will have some new fair access laws, active game management, and an expanded trail and road system. Hopefully I will have a Cessna 206 on floats and my BIL will have a the Beaver he has been dreaming of and we will be sitting in some remote lakeside cabin sipping scotch lamenting the fact we have to return to the world but happy with a full meat shed in the back. But even then I will still argue for equal access for all Alaskans.

  16. #16
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Deltajct
    Posts
    2,499

    Default

    I was waiting for the plane thing to come into effect. lol

    Next it will be the boats.

    If you look at the river system in Alaska, we probably have more of a highway that could equal Cailf, add in the planes, you take it from there.

    There might be less people in this state than there than there is Seattle, but they use the whole spectrume to the edge because it is the last frontier.

    I'm not a tree hugger, but I see where this is going.

    I am that Grand dad that has seen the change.

  17. #17
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    11,415

    Default

    Next? Heck I already have the boat... <grin>

  18. #18
    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tanana Valley AK
    Posts
    7,216

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Simple fact is supply and demand rules the day.
    This is at the heart of the issue. Demand is exceeding supply. The "resource" is finite. Our population growth, and our ability to kill the "resource" is limitless....

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    It isn't just about my right, it is about the equal opportunity for all Alaskans to hunt anywhere in the state for a fair opportunity at filling their freezer based on their own ability in the field....Where will Alaska be in 30 years? ...Hopefully I will have a Cessna 206 on floats and my BIL will have a the Beaver he has been dreaming of and we will be sitting in some remote lakeside cabin sipping scotch lamenting the fact we have to return to the world but happy with a full meat shed in the back. But even then I will still argue for equal access for all Alaskans.
    Glad to hear you'll still be rooting for us while you're sipping scotch. Will you fly the rest of us around to subsistence hunt hunt too, in your multi-hundred thousand dollar airplane? You know, so we can all still have equal access?

  19. #19
    Member Vince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Fairbanks most the time, Ancorage some of the time,& on the road Kicking Anti's all the time
    Posts
    8,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock_skipper View Post
    I was against the cow hunt to the extreme that they took it here in Delta, but it didn't stop allot of people from coming down to help them achieve their goal without looking at the data.

    So I ask you what are your hunting goals? Fire away.

    Es. Now you and i go back and forth on this issue... and i am still waiting for the data..... for as you have told me many times the Data used by department folks and presented at the meetings is WRONG and or MADE UP....

    one of the interesting things i have been learning the last 2 years is that the statewide mentality in the managing dept is also changing... you know for years there was a 1 bear every 4 year limit all around this state, due to the thought process of the mangers of the times... that bears populations were slow to recover and over harvest could be an big issue... and now we have a units out there with NO CLOSED season... no tag required and some with very liberal limits of more then one Grizz/Brown... and yet the new reports, for the most part show they are not making much of a dent in the populations even with HIGH harvest rates the bears recover fine...

    my point is this... that for many years the thought process was JUST WRONG... sure there were some mistakes poorly timed hunts, poorer understanding of the ecological system and every one of us including the managers have been on a learning curve for the last 30 years. when the fact is moose and caribou populations are GROWING across the state. as are predator populations... though some are being held in check... the fact is that with more moose and bou... the preds actually survive better have better cub/pup returns and are over all healthier for it.

    so i have to ask... WHAT data are you saying we look at? or is the data we have NOT wrong? as you have suggested to me many times already?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iofthetaiga View Post
    Will you fly the rest of us around to subsistence hunt hunt too, in your multi-hundred thousand dollar airplane? You know, so we can all still have equal access?
    Just a bit curious....but why would one expect others to provide them with transportation? Do you not know that you can learn to fly, buy/build your own plane? Do you have limitations, that would prevent you from providing your own mode of transport?

    Back to the OP's question:
    My goal is to hunt as often as I can. I fully expect to kill something each and every time I go afield. I hunt with a gun, not a camera. And....I want all others to have the same opportunity. Some might argue this is too much to strive for, but their arguement is moot.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •