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Thread: Why Party Hunt Apps out there?

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Why Party Hunt Apps out there?

    Can anybody explain to me "why there is a Party hunt app for the Draws, and why they would issue two permits to a party wanting to hunt together?"

    Watched 2 of the 8 permits for the area I drew (a 2 percent success rate hunt)
    this year go "Unused" because one party of two decided not to come down and use them? Nice for me this year but not for 500+ others who tried for that permit.

    Seems like a poor use of permits and large size game animals for one family or party to have two permits?

    So is there some advantage to applying this way? Unless I want a Super amt of meat to deal with, apply along with my son to increase the odds?

    Don't really want to take a disproportionate amount of tags out of the system as a result of either of us drawing, then automatically getting two tags?

    Don't get it, what am I missing?
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Member hoose35's Avatar
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    It doesn't increase your odds at all, I think the app with both names on it goes in the same pool as the others, so it seems it would actually lower the odds of you getting a permit since between the two of you, you only have one chance instead of two. Personally, I like the idea for a lot of the moose hunts on the Yukon, but I agree that the party hunt isn't so great for hunts with low number of permits being given out

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakrain View Post
    Can anybody explain to me "why there is a Party hunt app for the Draws, and why they would issue two permits to a party wanting to hunt together?"

    Watched 2 of the 8 permits for the area I drew (a 2 percent success rate hunt)
    this year go "Unused" because one party of two decided not to come down and use them? Nice for me this year but not for 500+ others who tried for that permit.

    Seems like a poor use of permits and large size game animals for one family or party to have two permits?

    So is there some advantage to applying this way? Unless I want a Super amt of meat to deal with, apply along with my son to increase the odds?

    Don't really want to take a disproportionate amount of tags out of the system as a result of either of us drawing, then automatically getting two tags?

    Don't get it, what am I missing?
    There are a lot of people who can't justify the cost or inconvenience of a hunt to just do it for a single animal, especially when it is a remote hunt requiring fly in or similar setup. By allowing the party hunts, people can choose to take that route and if drawn, they are guaranteed that the other party in the hunt also has a permit, making the trip more justified. In taking the choice of the party hunts, they take a chance of losing out when they would have drawn as a "single" application.

    The arguement regarding other hunters not using their permit does not hold water at all. If everyone hunted their permits, they would have to give out far fewer for each hunt. They factor in a number of permits that won't be hunted for and a success rate for those that are to get them down to the target "take" from the population. If everyone hunted the permits, they would end up with an overharvest. As a result, if everyone hunted the permits that were given out, the result would be that less permits would be able to be given out to avoid the overharvest.

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    Member jkb's Avatar
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    If my partner and I want to take our sons to raspberry to hunt elk. We would put in a party app and if drawn we can split expenses and have 4 packers to haul elk. If we don't draw oh well maybe next year.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming-----WOW-----what a ride!
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    Member Milo's Avatar
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    People apply as a party for all the same reasons that they carry 2 harvest tickets on a non-drawing hunt.
    Of course, if anyone reallys wants to go on a sheep hunt next year but not carry a harvest ticket, send me a pm

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Ok, I get it, thanks for the replies, just didn't register to me for some reason why someone would do that but this all makes sense.

    Maybe, Two Bull Elk in one family tho? Well, I do understand everyone wanting to hunt and who wants to be just a packer?

    Thanks folks
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakrain View Post

    Maybe, Two Bull Elk in one family tho? Well, I do understand everyone wanting to hunt and who wants to be just a packer?

    Thanks folks
    In a lot of cases it is not the same family, but rather your hunting partner or other relative.

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    F&G factors in some number of tags that won't be used....i.e.: If delta F&G wants to harvest 100 bison, they issue 130 draw tags as some folks won't be able to hunt and some will not be successful.

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    Premium Member Wyo2AK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakrain View Post
    Ok, I get it, thanks for the replies, just didn't register to me for some reason why someone would do that but this all makes sense.

    Maybe, Two Bull Elk in one family tho? Well, I do understand everyone wanting to hunt and who wants to be just a packer?

    Thanks folks
    As ERDucker hinted at... parties aren't just limited to family. I don't have any family in AK, but I do have several hunting partners who would be willing to split the cost on a remote hunt if we both had a fair chance at harvesting an animal.
    Pursue happiness with diligence.

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Ahhhh, Ok, now I really "get It"
    Thanks again, now that's some strategy I'll have to consider for next yrs Draw apps,

    Really does make sense to do it that way,

    One more question, you don't have to hunt them that way, right. if you draw a party hunt, both get permits, one can't go for various reasons, A permit is still a Permit right?
    Ok, I'm sure that is a poor question, just wondering, "how do you choose a partner that reliable?"
    You guys probably all have one or two, I'm pretty solo most of the time, well all of the time, but this idea does sound good.

    PS I do understand the giving of more permits than are expected to hunt, I was kind of reacting to seeing one couple last year (same last name, man and woman) draw Party Hunts for not only Bull Elk, but also they drew party for Bull Moose somewhere and another, I think it was Caribou. So it seemed wierd to put that much meat out there in one family, and I was thinking it had to be for a "Couple in one family."

    Thanks for the input, I'm now smarter than I used to be........well I hope

    So, for the Really Mathemetical Minds, It does actually increase your odds a little bit doesn't it, two names in the hat versus one, one draws you both recieve? Odds, UP, just a smidgeon?
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakrain View Post
    Ahhhh, Ok, now I really "get It"
    Thanks again, now that's some strategy I'll have to consider for next yrs Draw apps,

    Really does make sense to do it that way,

    One more question, you don't have to hunt them that way, right. if you draw a party hunt, both get permits, one can't go for various reasons, A permit is still a Permit right?
    Ok, I'm sure that is a poor question, just wondering, "how do you choose a partner that reliable?"
    You guys probably all have one or two, I'm pretty solo most of the time, well all of the time, but this idea does sound good.

    PS I do understand the giving of more permits than are expected to hunt, I was kind of reacting to seeing one couple last year (same last name, man and woman) draw Party Hunts for not only Bull Elk, but also they drew party for Bull Moose somewhere and another, I think it was Caribou. So it seemed wierd to put that much meat out there in one family, and I was thinking it had to be for a "Couple in one family."

    Thanks for the input, I'm now smarter than I used to be........well I hope

    So, for the Really Mathemetical Minds, It does actually increase your odds a little bit doesn't it, two names in the hat versus one, one draws you both recieve? Odds, UP, just a smidgeon?
    Actually, the odds are less than 50% compared to those of either one individually drawing. Here is the information from the ADF&G website on that subject.

    "
    The computer then randomly assigns a number to each hunt on each valid application. The random number is referred to as your "draw number." Party hunt applications receive one draw number for each hunt. That is, both applicants on the party hunt application receive the same draw number per hunt, so if that number is drawn, both party members receive a permit.
    Permits are awarded to applicants with the lowest randomly assigned draw numbers up to the number of permits allocated for that particular hunt. If five permits are to be awarded for a particular hunt, the five permits will be given to the first five lowest draw numbers until the total permit allocation is awarded. For example, if four of the five permits have been awarded, and a party application has the next random number, the party application will be skipped. This is because there is only one permit left available, and two permits would have to be awarded for a party application (one for each member of the party). The permit will instead be awarded to the next individual applicant whose number is selected. "

    Essentially, a party application counts as a single entry into the drawing. If drawn, both get a permit as long as there are still two permits available. If they are the last number drawn and there is only one permit available, they get put aside and the next individual application will get the permit.

  12. #12
    Member hoose35's Avatar
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    No Kodiak, i am pretty sure both hunters are on the same draw ticket, which if I am thinking correctly, would actually lower your odds just a little, thank if two people put in for separate tags, but here is the thing, your chances of both getting a tag with a party app is higher than the two same people applying separately. If you want a better chance of at least one guy drawing, put in separate, if the only way you will do the hunt is with both hunters winning a tag, then put in for party.

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Whoa, that's a good explanation, hoose, helps a lot, Thanks that does seem to be actually lower than even (-)50% poorer odds

    I'll be applying solo, have to entice packer help with Meat in their freezer, I guess
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Not exactly true. Your odds don't change significantly unless their are very few tags available. If 2 people put in separately then odds are better that one of them will win since they have 2 "chances". However in my case where I will not go if I don't have a partner then I will not put in at all. Mainlanders will say they will go even if they don't draw but when the tags drop and your name is there and theirs isn't then they tend to stop returning calls. Especially when it's time to talk charter costs! So if you were going to put in solo and I was not going to put in at all then your odds don't change much by adding me. The only way that adding a partner will hurt you is if your shared draw number comes up on the last available tag. In that case you will be skipped and the tag given to the next non party draw number. If there is only 3 tags this can really hurt you, but if there are 75 or 100, it is not very significant.

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    COLOR=blue] Mainlanders will say they will go even if they don't draw but when the tags drop and your name is there and theirs isn't then they tend to stop returning calls.[/COLOR] Especially when it's time to talk charter costs!
    hah, yeah, I bet that's true, good point LJ
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    NOT ALL applicants, or winners, are HUNTERS at all...
    Non- and anti-hunters put in for permits because if they win one, or TWO in the case of a party hunt they are assured that their permits represent one or two animals that will NOT be killed by hunters this year.

    Sad, but true.

    Taylor

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    Member Gr is for Greg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Taylor View Post
    NOT ALL applicants, or winners, are HUNTERS at all...
    Non- and anti-hunters put in for permits because if they win one, or TWO in the case of a party hunt they are assured that their permits represent one or two animals that will NOT be killed by hunters this year.

    Sad, but true.

    Taylor
    I've heard this theory expressed before on this forum. I'm a little skeptical about it, though. Do you (or does anyone else) have first-hand knowledge of this happening? It just seems a little far-fetched. Besides, if anti-hunters are doing this to try and reduce the number of kills, it would be pretty ineffective. As stated above, the number of permits issued is always more than what F&G expects to be harvested. If a certain percentage of permits go to people who intentionally don't hunt, F&G would just issue more permits. It could actually do more harm than good. If they are causing an increase in permit issuance for a given population of animals, it's conceivable that on some year, all of the permit winners will be avid and successful hunters, and that could do some significant damage to a sensitive population of animals.

    Sorry to hijack the thread, just writing down some thoughts...

    -Gr
    My signature is awesome.

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    Member oakman's Avatar
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    LuJon hit it pretty well. If there are quite a few tags available, then applying for a party permit doesn't hurt you too bad on the odds. Consider that if there are 100 permits available, your party permit application will work on 99 of the numbers drawn. Only one of those will not work (if you are the last one drawn). Now compare that to a hunt with only 3 permits available. Now only 2 of the 3 will work for you. Worse yet would be applying for a party permit where only 1 permit is available. Now you are bound to fail (I'd be interested to know if this ever happens).

    For some people, they don't want to go on a hunt unless they can hunt with someone. They don't want to tag along, do a bunch of work and not have a chance to hunt themselves. For people like this, a party permit is great.

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    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gr is for Greg View Post
    I've heard this theory expressed before on this forum. I'm a little skeptical about it, though. Do you (or does anyone else) have first-hand knowledge of this happening? It just seems a little far-fetched. Besides, if anti-hunters are doing this to try and reduce the number of kills, it would be pretty ineffective. As stated above, the number of permits issued is always more than what F&G expects to be harvested. If a certain percentage of permits go to people who intentionally don't hunt, F&G would just issue more permits. It could actually do more harm than good. If they are causing an increase in permit issuance for a given population of animals, it's conceivable that on some year, all of the permit winners will be avid and successful hunters, and that could do some significant damage to a sensitive population of animals.

    Sorry to hijack the thread, just writing down some thoughts...

    -Gr
    Yes, I know for a fact that this happens. I personally know a State Trooper (name will be withheld) that has a problem with the harvesting of female animals, and intentionally puts in for said permits in order to assure at least one animal won't be killed by hunters.

  20. #20
    Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    Yes, as long as a person was telling the truth when she stated that she yearly buys a license in order to enter the draw with hopes of winning a tag, as do many of her friends. She stated that, anyway...

    I guess I could track down her application and follow her around all year to see if she actually hunts, but I just took her at her word. Silly me.

    What makes you think they WOULDN'T do that? Belief in the general good nature of humans? Think again.

    Taylor

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