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Thread: Look at this, From Lake Louise!

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    Angry Look at this, From Lake Louise!



    Ukranians netting the lake again!

  2. #2
    Member Dirtofak's Avatar
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    This picture.... does not do it justice. 30 pound lakers caught in a 2" net. I call BS! There is much more on the back channels.

    Rumor - This is more by catch than what was reported all of last winter. MANY more rumors. Lake Louise is at one per day already..... due to overfishing. This will decimate the lodges at a time when they need the revenue.

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    Member fullbush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SalmonMan View Post


    Ukranians netting the lake again!
    My God man! eek
    Apparently the neighborhood watch patrol is going to have to expand its perimeter. That means every man woman and child is responsible for policing our resources. I'm not advocating taking the law in our hands, wait maybe I am?
    If I was the Governor of this great state I would institute a civilian fish and game policing program similar to the national guard. I would man it w/ private pilots w/ their own planes, snowmobile enthusiasts, back country skiers, mushers, native subsistence gathers, heck any citizen that wants to keep our resources intact.
    Instead of solving the crimes after they happen w/ limited over worked staff it seems reasonable that if every tree, or rock had eyes, it would detour most of the shenanigans.
    Last edited by fullbush; 10-27-2010 at 09:48. Reason: notice I didn't trash the Ukrainians?

  4. #4

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    Oh No, not "again"....Still....and with the full knowledge and condonement of the Good Folks in ADF&G. Don't believe it? Call them or stop in and talk to them. I did. And I got an earfull.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullbush View Post
    My God man! eek
    Apparently the neighborhood watch patrol is going to have to expand its perimeter. That means every man woman and child is responsible for policing our resources. I'm not advocating taking the law in our hands, wait maybe I am?
    If I was the Governor of this great state I would institute a civilian fish and game policing program similar to the national guard. I would man it w/ private pilots w/ their own planes, snowmobile enthusiasts, back country skiers, mushers, native subsistence gathers, heck any citizen that wants to keep our resources intact.
    Instead of solving the crimes after they happen w/ limited over worked staff it seems reasonable that if every tree, or rock had eyes, it would detour most of the shenanigans.
    Hmmm, a sentiment I can agree with, mostly. But the question I have to ask is: was whatever happened here actually an illegal act as implied? And if so, why did AKres "get an earful"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    Oh No, not "again"....Still....and with the full knowledge and condonement of the Good Folks in ADF&G. Don't believe it? Call them or stop in and talk to them. I did. And I got an earfull.
    As long as we have a system and mentality represented by ADF& GAME, along with the BOGAME, who's PRIMARY focus is on the maximum possible extraction of the "RESOURCE"... we will have this. It's all about our collective mentality and how we view our enviroment. If we the people wanted it, we could have a Division of Wildlife who's PRIMARY focus is to manage and protect all the species in a biologically and ecologically sound manner for the good of the overall system, and who's SECONDARY focus is human consumption, but we don't. We are all about raping and pillaging in this State... We all want to be able to kill everything we want whenever we want and we don't like it when someone tries to tell us we can't hunt "our resource", but we get pissed when we see someone else do the same...

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    Member egreife's Avatar
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    Hey AKRES,

    I read a lot of your posts and find some quite interesting, insightful and amusing at times. But this last one has me curious. What do you mean by an earful??

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    OK. Playing the Devil's Advocate here...
    How do you know they're "Ukranians"? Not doubting, just curious.
    It would fit the pattern I have seen and heard about re: the Russians on the peninsula and in the valley.

    Why do they even allow any type of netting in a lake with an endangered population of fish?

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    Member Dirtofak's Avatar
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    Rumor heard they were asked if they were Russian, they responded Ukranian. I was not there. I hate rumors. To have a subsistence permit, they have to be Alaskans I believe. They are reportedly from Delta Jct. All of the emails that I received lately refer to them as Russians.

    Not pointing fingers - There have been too many occurances lately for a quiet community. Ax marks and broken windows on cabins, sliced tires on 3 vehicles in the parking lot, 4" nets found in the bushes, lots of night activities. There has even been vigilante talk if it does not end.

    I take my family out there. I do not need to hear about abusive language, guns pointed, laker population decimated. From my personal experience, the lakers are almost completely gone from an area where they have been for several years. There are very few whitefish there anymore. The schools are gone. Did the lakers move away due to lack of food or did they get caught in nets? I don't know. I do know that the netting is changing where the lakers are found, if not drastically affecting the population. I personally cannot believe that only a few years after almost completely closing down fishing due to low numbers of fish, they are allowing netting. It makes absolutely no sense. When the fishing statistics are filed for this year, they will find that the number of hours to catch a fish tripled. Then they will shut it down for the sportsmen. The sportsmen that support the lodges and pay taxes out there. All because they did not want to shut down netting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egreife View Post
    Hey AKRES,

    I read a lot of your posts and find some quite interesting, insightful and amusing at times. But this last one has me curious. What do you mean by an earful??
    A couple of weeks ago I received a PM with photo about this taking place. I copied the photo and carried with me last week, when I went north to hunt. I stopped in Glenallen to ask questions of the ADF&G Reps there, about game and then asked about the netting going on as well. The response's I got from two individuals left no room for misinterpretation. They KNOW what is happening. There have been NO citations or even warnings issued. The perps have not even been spoken to/with. The subject of inability to effectively communicate verbally with the perps was seemingly a valid enough reason to say nothing. I call that an earful.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    For starters, Ukrainians HATE being labeled Russians. It stems from more than just these guys, it's a big deal to them to be named correctly. But they don't seem to mind when they break your truck windows out, slash your tires, screw your vehicle up at the shop, etc. Not a group of people I am very trustworthy with.

    "We all want to be able to kill everything we want whenever we want and we don't like it when someone tries to tell us we can't hunt "our resource", but we get pissed when we see someone else do the same..."

    Iofthetaiga, that's rediculous and shows why subsistence is such a touchy issue. Your ignorance of how "we all" want something is foolish.
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

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    Member DRIFTER_016's Avatar
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    A few hours ago I sent the area manager and regional suprvisor an email about the situation and my concerns as a tourist and how depleting the fishery would hurt the local economy when the tourists went elsewhere to spend their money. I just recieved this response.

    All,

    ADF&G and the Alaska Wildlife Troopers (AWT) are well aware of the concerns stemming from the subsistence whitefish fishery on Lake Louise, Susitna Lake and Tyone Lake. We are working together to investigate possible illegal actions and monitor the fishery for non-compliance with subsistence permit stipulations. The problem is simple, catch people in the act of illegal fishing or verify they are acting legally. The solution, however, is complex due to the nature of the fishery and it's users. The community has been involved by contacting AWT and the chain of command in the Department of Public Safety to allow more enforcement resources to be deployed. More direct intervention by community members is not recommended since it can be dangerous and if no violation is being committed the community members wind-up as the violators by interfering with a legal subsistence harvest.

    Here is some information to hopefully bring you up to speed on the current situation.

    At its December, 2008 meeting the Alaska Board of Fisheries made a positive Customary and Traditional Use finding for the freshwater fishes of the Prince William Sound Area, which includes the waters of the Upper Copper - Upper Susitna Management Area. Even without this determination, ADF&G has been issuing subsistence whitefish harvest permits since at least 1963. ADF&G's longest subsistence harvest data set is from the Lake Louise, Susitna, Tyone Lakes complex. The second longest data set is from Paxson Lake. This does not include Ahtna traditional knowledge data in which Lake Louise and Paxson Lake figure significantly. The average harvest of whitefish over the last ten years (1999-2008) is 478 fish from Lake Louise Area lakes and 897 fish from Paxson Lake. Traditionally, reported incidental harvest of lake trout has been less than 27 lake trout area wide in any given year. At the reported harvest levels there is no concern for the whitefish or lake trout populations in any area lakes due to a subsistence fishery alone.

    Let me be clear, the excessive harvest of lake trout from Lake Louise was abhorrent and deeply bothers me. However, it was not necessarily illegal. Incidental harvest of lake trout was allowed at the time of the incident covered in photo's. It is possible that the nets were set among a spawning aggregation or several aggregations. I examined 24 heads and saw gill net marks on the snouts of the two largest and up to the operculum covers on the smaller (~22") lake trout. This leads me to conclude the net mesh was within the permitted size. Just being found with 100 lake trout was not illegal. Highly unethical, but not illegal.

    That said, I do suspect the people involved with this harvest may be doing things outside their permit stipulations to get these fish. Specifically, they may be tying nets together, seining with gillnets, perhaps using larger mesh gear than allowed (although all gear checks at shore have turned up legal 2" mesh gear), and keeping live lake trout when their permit instructs them to release them if alive. Even if the traditional subsistence permit holders were less than accurate in their recording of incidental lake trout harvests, an incidental harvest of lake trout in the 10's to 100's in a single weekend is highly unusual and unlikely to occur by chance alone. The issue is we need to catch these people in an illegal act.

    This situation is frustrating in many ways. Since this is a subsistence fishery, it has priority over all other uses (as per Alaska Statute) and therefore, if ADF&G determines that harvest levels are unsustainable we must first restrict or even close the sport fishery. So abuses in one fishery affect a totally unrelated group of users. Secondly, this fishery has been going on since at least 1964. Perhaps some abuses occurred, but for the most part there were no issues we know of. Over the last 3 - 4 years another element has discovered this fishery and has also decided to take advantage of the fact that oversight of fisheries (whether subsistence, sport, or commercial) in a large area and with limited personnel is difficult at best. Conservation of our resources relies upon the personal ethics of the user regardless of the number of rules and restrictions we place upon them.

    I have closed the fishery through November 15th. This should allow the lake time to freeze over and prevent boat use and should be thin enough to prevent most travel on the lake by snowmachine. All retention of non-target species in the entire Upper Copper - Upper Susitna Management Area is prohibited as of October 24. The permit stipulations specifically state that all lake trout, burbot, and grayling must be released alive or dead. All or most permit holders have been contacted by phone and informed of these changes and certified letters were sent to each one. It is likely that future permits (next year) will prohibit possession of incidentally caught fish. The start date for the fishery, which is traditionally October 1st, may vary from year to year if Fall weather conditions and water temperatures indicate that lake trout may still be susceptible in spawning aggregations.

    To address issues within this fishery in the long run, ADF&G may need to make the permits more restrictive which runs counter to the concept of subsistence fisheries. Enforcement oversight may also need to increase, but will require increased funding to accomplish. There are several possible options on how to address the recent issues in this fishery which has operated without significant controversy for well over 50 years. Unfortunately, future permits may have to be designed to approach this fishery from the point of view that permit holders will abuse the privileges of this fishery and must be prevented as best possible from doing so. That is a bitter pill to swallow.

    If you have further questions on this issue please feel free to contact me.

    MAS Mark A. Somerville
    UCUS Area Management Biologist
    Alaska Department of Fish and GamePO Box 47Glennallen, AK 99588
    phone: 907-822-3309
    cell: 907-822-3309
    fax: 907-822-3811

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    Oh No, not "again"
    ;-) .................................

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    Member ironartist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    Oh No, not "again"....
    That's why they move to the land of plenty, so there's lots for them to deplete. I wonder where the fine member is that doesn't care if forigners invade our fine State and ruin the resourse. Problem is if they do catch these guys they will get a slap cause they don't understand or read english. What a joke!!!!
    Visions Steel/841-WELD(9353)
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    Μολών λαβέ

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    Member alaskabliss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRIFTER_016 View Post
    A few hours ago I sent the area manager and regional suprvisor an email about the situation and my concerns as a tourist and how depleting the fishery would hurt the local economy when the tourists went elsewhere to spend their money. I just recieved this response.
    I feel the responce was very good and it seems that the state is being proactive the best they can. I was up at Lake Louise lodge last week and got an ear full about this situation and the locals are just sick about it. The troopers are stepping up patrols to try and bust the poachers. Good luck to them. I did see three troopers at the boat launch in their boat

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alaskabliss View Post
    I feel the responce was very good and it seems that the state is being proactive the best they can. I was up at Lake Louise lodge last week and got an ear full about this situation and the locals are just sick about it. The troopers are stepping up patrols to try and bust the poachers. Good luck to them. I did see three troopers at the boat launch in their boat
    yeah too bad it is lakers... if some one had said STEEL HEAD>.. half the country would have been up stopping it...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DRIFTER_016 View Post
    A few hours ago I sent the area manager and regional suprvisor an email about the situation and my concerns as a tourist and how depleting the fishery would hurt the local economy when the tourists went elsewhere to spend their money. I just recieved this response.
    As a tourist, was this answer good enough for you to want to come back and spend your money?
    That is sorta/kinda what I was told in person, but without the apologetic overtones. They know the perps, they know the damage they are doing and they are full of excuses why nothing is or should be done. They are running scared. How can illegals have such a strangle hold on our LEO? Because we don't demand anything of them, that's how. We allow it, thinking they are doing their jobs. NOT SO. And then we allow them to address the problems in the manner they responded to you, thinking it is what you want to hear, to shut you up. It seems to be working.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member Frostbitten's Avatar
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    While the situation is sickening, I find it interesting in that the only place I've heard or seen anything at all about this is on this forum. This seems like something the media would be interested in, but yet I've seen nothing. Why is that?

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    Supporting Member iofthetaiga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pike_palace View Post
    For starters, Ukrainians HATE being labeled Russians. It stems from more than just these guys, it's a big deal to them to be named correctly. But they don't seem to mind when they break your truck windows out, slash your tires, screw your vehicle up at the shop, etc. Not a group of people I am very trustworthy with.

    "We all want to be able to kill everything we want whenever we want and we don't like it when someone tries to tell us we can't hunt "our resource", but we get pissed when we see someone else do the same..."

    Iofthetaiga, that's rediculous and shows why subsistence is such a touchy issue. Your ignorance of how "we all" want something is foolish.
    I appreciate your point. And it's a point that everyone should take to heart. There are alot of hot headed attitudes flying around in these threads that will not solve any of the problems.

    Having vehicles damaged, tires slashed, people threatened with guns is not acceptable and needs to be dealt with swiftly by AST. Illegal (if so), bycatch needs to be dealt with by F&G and AST.

    Racial remarks, calling people "illegals" as has been done in this thread, making comments as have recently been posted in other threads that "residents of unit 13 deserve to lose all their resources and receive nothing in return", are ignorant, inflamatory, and counterproductive.

    I'm no less frustrated and upset than the next person about recent happenings and the general state of affairs that exists with wildlife management in Alaska, but my point is that I see what appears to be a whole lot of pots calling the kettle black on these threads.

  19. #19

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    So then why are these "russians" or whatever vandalizeing rigs at the boat launch, to attract MORE attention to themselves? The situation is sickening and if this group is fishing illeagaly,squating,vandalizeing......clearly they have no respect for law. Point being,these guys are
    dangerous. I've run into a few up there, they're all VISSIBLY packing, get a wierd feeling.Be carefull up there.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frostbitten View Post
    While the situation is sickening, I find it interesting in that the only place I've heard or seen anything at all about this is on this forum. This seems like something the media would be interested in, but yet I've seen nothing. Why is that?
    The only problem is that here, you have a vast majority of readers who are at least mostly level headed and can grasp that this is happening as a result of a small, select group of people doing bad things. If you open it up to the "media", you are going to run into the problem we always have when hunting/fishing violations get published, the general public associates that limited bad activity to everyone, including all the rest of the legitimate, ethical people doing the right thing. As they said in Men in Black, a person is smart, people are scared, dumb, etc... It's a tight line to walk, trying to get the information out so something can be done while not getting it out to the point that it does more harm than good to the rest of us.

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