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Thread: Point system?

  1. #1
    Member tlingitwarrior's Avatar
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    Default Point system?

    What to make of this; taken from an Alaskan guide's website.

    The Alaska Department of Fish and Game is implementing a priority point system starting 2011, so now is the optimum time to start applying and be at the top of the priority point list.
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  2. #2

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    What's the website so we can find more information? There are one or two things that are starting something of a points system, but it is not something that is going to be system-wide by any means. Hopefully it never will be either in my opinion.

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    Bison and soon to be sheep are the first to be implemented. It will be phased in. Eventually all draw hunts will be points based. Not saying when, because it is all in flux at the present. But, rest assured it is coming, soon to a hunting area near you.
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    and the APHA will get it... cause no one will come to a meeting.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member akfishfool's Avatar
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    Where is the info on these changes. I would like to read up on these proposed changes. I was lucky enough to get a bison two years ago, does this mean odds will be even worse of ever getting one again, or my son or daughter ever drawing one. And I am finally getting healthy enough to consider that some day I might be able to hunt for sheep, you know after the va buys me a new hip and does a back surgery that actually makes things better!!!. So should I just give up hope of ever hunting sheep? how will this point system work, and Vince who is the APHA

  6. #6
    Member fullkurl's Avatar
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    Our state just shot this down...thankfully.

    Alaska residents, g'bye yearly sheep hunting if this passes....
    Proud to be an American!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by akfishfool View Post
    Where is the info on these changes. I would like to read up on these proposed changes. I was lucky enough to get a bison two years ago, does this mean odds will be even worse of ever getting one again, or my son or daughter ever drawing one. And I am finally getting healthy enough to consider that some day I might be able to hunt for sheep, you know after the va buys me a new hip and does a back surgery that actually makes things better!!!. So should I just give up hope of ever hunting sheep? how will this point system work, and Vince who is the APHA
    Check into the Board of Game. They have a cycle where they dig into the regulations for certain "regions" each year. During the cycle for each specific region, they send out a request for proposals where anyone can submit their ideas. They then read through these and either accept or deny it. Unfortunately, they tend to end up doing their own thing anyway with or without a proposal. There is an opportunity to show up and testify at some of their meetings.

    I am willing to try out a lot of new things, but with a point system, there is a serious problem with starting it. Once you start it, you almost can't stop it because those who have gained points and are close to drawing are going to cry foul and file all sorts of lawsuits if they suddenly change it.

    APHA = Alaska Professional Hunters Association (guides). Guides are one of the only groups that don't have anything to lose to a point system.

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    Member akfishfool's Avatar
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    thanks for the info I know about the bog meetings, but I haven't been up to date the last year or so, (other things going on/family but I was more than concerned to here talk of a point system. btw I keep waiting to hear something positive about the guides, I have nothing against making a living, but greed and pure selfishness iritate me!!

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    Member Hoyt's Avatar
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    This is not good. Lawsuit to stop this maybe? This takes away a fair level playing field. Next you'll be able to buy pints, and the average Joe will be forced out of popular hunts. It's already happened in a number of states in the 48.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoyt View Post
    Lawsuit to stop this maybe?
    Or,
    Write an Op/Ed to the ADN
    or
    Speak your piece at the BOG Hearings
    or
    Stand around and wring your hands
    or
    Complain about it on the internet

    But, your first inclination is your best chance, me thinks. Get lawyered up and get a judge to agree with you. Be prepared to foot a hefty bill, cause you ain't likely to get much help when the bills start coming due.
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  11. #11
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Concerning a point system and professinal hunting and the Alaska Professional Hunters Asociation (APHA).

    Vince Your one liner comment above in post #4 leads me to believe that you think APHA is in favor of a point system to become involved in the Alaska permit syste. Well, first of all, everybody knows that i was loosly associated with that organization until they proved to me that they ARE NOT MY TRIBE. I am not in any way associated with that klan/clan in any way, other than to be generally in opposition to most of their political mumbo-jumbo. (But I do miss that cool APHA belt buckle!) Soooo............

    So, Vince, what leads you to believe that they, APHA, would be in favor of a point based permit system? because while within their ranks (right near the bottom rung on the ladder) I never heard anybody in favor of a point system involving permit hunts.

    akfishfool...do you think that any guides (professinal, contracting guide-outfitters) would be or should be in favor of a point system? If so, then why?

    I am only associated professionally/socially with perhaps fifty other guides and commercial services providers, Master Guide-Outfitters, Registered Guide Outfitters, or Associate Guides, and Transporters. Some operate as contracting businesses. Some work for those businesses.

    Nobody, none, zilch, zero....support a concept of awarding points to be initiated in the Alaska permit hunt application process or sytem.
    So akfishfool, that may be why you have not heard anything positive about permit points from the guides, greedy or otherwise. None of us guides support a point system. All of us guides oppose it.

    Somebody, anybody...tell me I'm innaccurate if I am. But name names so I can verify it.

    akres...can you think of any guides in favor of a point system? If yes...who?

    dennis

  12. #12
    Member Hoyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    Or,
    Write an Op/Ed to the ADN
    or
    Speak your piece at the BOG Hearings
    or
    Stand around and wring your hands
    or
    Complain about it on the internet

    But, your first inclination is your best chance, me thinks. Get lawyered up and get a judge to agree with you. Be prepared to foot a hefty bill, cause you ain't likely to get much help when the bills start coming due.
    I don't know the answers, just tossing out an idea. There have been a number of lawsuits filed to stop things implemented by F&G. There must be some group out there that could generate interest and support to stop this. I'm a simple minded little guy form Salcha, so I surely don't have the answers, but if enough people/or a some group agrees to file a suit, the money could be raised. Just throwing out ideas.

  13. #13
    Member Hoyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    Concerning a point system and professinal hunting and the Alaska Professional Hunters Asociation (APHA).

    Vince Your one liner comment above in post #4 leads me to believe that you think APHA is in favor of a point system to become involved in the Alaska permit syste. Well, first of all, everybody knows that i was loosly associated with that organization until they proved to me that they are not my tribe. I am not in any way associated with that klan/clan in any way, other than to be in generally in opposition to most of their political mumbo-jumbo. Soooo............

    So, Vince, what leads you to believe that they, APHA, would be in favor of a point based permit system? because while within their ranks (right near the bottom rung on the ladder) I never heard anybody in favor to a point system involving permit hunts.

    akfishfool...do you think that any guides (professinal, contracting guide-outfitters) would be or should be in favor of a point system? If so, then why?

    I am only associated professionally/socially with perhaps fifty other guides and commercial services providers, Master Guide-Outfitters, Registered Guide Outfitters, or Associate Guides, and Transporters. Some operate as contracting businesses. Some work for those businesses.

    Nobody, none, zilch, zero....support a concept of awarding points to be initiated in the Alaska permit hunt application process or sytem.
    So akfishfool, that may be why you have not heard anything positive about permit points from the guides, greedy or otherwise. None of us guides support a point system. All of us guides oppose it.

    Somebody, anybody...tell me I'm innaccurate if I am. But name names so I can verify it.

    akres...can you think of any guides in favor of a point system? If yes...who?

    dennis
    I don't know any guides, so I'll take your word for it. If guides area against it, and the majority of the residents of the state are against it, then why is it being implemented? Who is the driving force behind it? Serious question.

  14. #14
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    Point systems (in particular true preference points that indefinitely accumulate) sound much better than they practically apply. Once started they never end, and the waiting game gets ridiculous to the point of loss of interest. I have experienced both true preference points in my home state of Oregon and the random draw style of Idaho where my brothers now reside. No comparison! Idaho's system (same as Alaska's current way) is way better IMO, and I am glad the voters of ID shot it down. I hope this movement in Alaska can be squashed before it gains enough momentum to suck the life out of "specialty" tags. It's unlikely that the specialty tags would be the end of it anyway.

    Imagine circling an airport for 5 or 10 or 15 years in a row waiting for your turn to land. At some point you run out of fuel and crash or you simply find another airport. In the event you do get clearance to land at the original airport you've been circling until you are gray, bald, or dead you will experience that airport only once because you're so disgusted that you never want to land there again. Ha Ha That's what a true preference point system feels like to me.

    Random draw is not only equitable for all ages and stages it offers a yearly dose of hope to all. It does, however, get in the way of those who feel they are entitled to a particular tag because there is no guaranteed endpoint. I struggle to find sufficient reason/s to change Alaska's already good system. Idaho has said "NO" and I think we should also. JMO

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    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Hoyt...I got no answers tonight as to who supports the concept. All I know is who does not like it. Tomorror I might have an answer.
    Anybody, who absolutely supports this concept?

    I am a "random draw" type guy".

    dennis

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    Member akfishfool's Avatar
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    I have known some great guides over the years, so I by no means am trying to lump them together in anyway, I just havn't heard much positive. I take it from your post you are against a point system. thats good, I hope others feel that way too. I would still like more info on the point system proposal, and the date for the next bog meeting, as I have no problem with attending. I just don't want to speak on rumors. But if there is a legitimate push for this type of system, I want to know details on how it will work and who will gain. I can't do alot of the hunts that others can, even if I had the money, I have physical limitations. but I don't want the opportunity for whats left to be destroyed for the gain of a few. I know some things change, but this is not the way. And I have seen what point systems did in other states especially when points can be bought (bad) Anyway like I said if someone knows where there is info on this proposal I would like to see it

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    Member AK Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millsymojo View Post
    Imagine circling an airport for 5 or 10 or 15 years in a row waiting for your turn to land. At some point you run out of fuel and crash or you simply find another airport. In the event you do get clearance to land at the original airport you've been circling until you are gray, bald, or dead you will experience that airport only once because you're so disgusted that you never want to land there again. Ha Ha That's what a true preference point system feels like to me.

    Random draw is not only equitable for all ages and stages it offers a yearly dose of hope to all. It does, however, get in the way of those who feel they are entitled to a particular tag because there is no guaranteed endpoint. I struggle to find sufficient reason/s to change Alaska's already good system. Idaho has said "NO" and I think we should also. JMO
    The airport anology is pretty good. However, there are guys that have stated they have applied for TMA sheep drawings for over 20 years and finally give up due to their age and not being able to handle the physical conditions of the hunt. Other guys draw it twice in a decade. (I have never met one of these guys, but have read about them.) How is that equitable?

    I have applied for a cow moose tag for the same area that I duck hunt. I have never been drawn in a decade of applying. This year I met a guy from montana that has been up here for two years and won the tag his first time applying.

    The Fort Rich moose draws are one of the easiest tags to win multible times due to the bow hunter or muzzle loader certification requirements. Not many folks qualify to apply so every 4 to 6 years its your turn again it appears.

    When I was a little kid, Nevada switched over to a point drawing system for deer tags. It was done to control deer populations after a huge crash state wide. Basically nobody drew a tag their first two years applying (unless they applied for one of the units that had very few deer and thus very few applicants), then on year three you were drawn for one of your three areas you applied for. After drawing a tag once you would not draw a tag on that unit for a few more years. This keeps people moving around the state and controls pressure on the hunt units.

    I don't think a state wide point system is needed. There is not a game population management need in most units. There is not a hunter management need in most units. However, for some "hunts of a lifetime" like TMA or Bison, a points system would improve the chances of all applicants getting a shot at the tags.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    akres...can you think of any guides in favor of a point system? If yes...who?
    dennis
    Nope.
    But I can off hand think of a few within the BOG, the ADF&G and some of the reknowned Federations/Foundations that love it. Too few 'average joe hunters' honestly know the goals and aspirations of the groups they join and financially support or their governmental representatives and appointees.
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  19. #19
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akfishfool View Post
    Where is the info on these changes. I would like to read up on these proposed changes. I was lucky enough to get a bison two years ago, does this mean odds will be even worse of ever getting one again, or my son or daughter ever drawing one. And I am finally getting healthy enough to consider that some day I might be able to hunt for sheep, you know after the va buys me a new hip and does a back surgery that actually makes things better!!!. So should I just give up hope of ever hunting sheep? how will this point system work, and Vince who is the APHA
    http://www.alaskaprohunter.org/nrhpf.htm
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  20. #20
    Member Jeff Shannon's Avatar
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    Anybody that thinks a point system is "fair" is sorely mistaken. Montana implemented a similar bonus point system for all draw hunts about 8 years ago, because of the exact same arguments I've read on this board. The thing is the exact same issues continue to happen even with the wonderful point system that's supposed to prevent it. A random drawing is always going to be unfair. My father-in-law has put in for the same trophy elk tag in MT for the last 16 years and he hasn't drawn it even though he has the maximum number of points available. My Dad on the other hand has drawn that same elk tag twice in the last four years with minimal points, because you lose them each time you draw. How "fair" does that sound? The real issue isn't with the drawing system it's with the serious lack of understanding of statistics among the general populace. Most people think that after ten or twenty years of putting in for a Delta bison tag that they should draw one. What they don't realize is that with a 0.5% chance of drawing that they'd actually have to put in for 200 years before they were due to draw a tag. Reality is most of us will never draw a Delta bison or a Tok sheep tag, and we'll probably never win the Powerball lottery or get drafted into the NFL either. That's just life. I can promise you one thing though; even with a point system you'll hear just as much cry-baby complaining as you do now.

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