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Thread: For Potential Violators...

  1. #1

    Default For Potential Violators...

    I've been following the thread discussing the 50" regulation on moose, and it's enforcement. I certainly have my thoughts about it, but I don't believe for a second that I have an answer which is fair for the state...fair for sportsmen...and realistically enforceable. It's quite obvious that the goals of the state, with respect to these regs and penalties, is to minimize the harvest of sub-mature bulls in areas of heavier pressure or better hunter access. Do the current regs/penalties encourage compliance? I think they do. Will guys accidentally or intentionally violate? Of course they will. For those who consider how to violate and not get caught:

    I was recently on a SuperCub strip in a very unpressured drainage, and I killed a fine bull with my bow. This bull was completely legal in all respects, so all I had to do was complete my obligations as a hunter...which I did. After 4 days, my pilot dropped by and took the meat and head, which were in perfect condition. 2 hours after my pilot flew away, I received a visitor. A gorgeous red Robinson helicopter was flying the backcountry and spotted my camp. He immediately flew a couple circles and presumably spotted the remains of my moose carcass. I'm assuming he videoed or photographed the kill site, and then he landed near my camp.

    I walked out to meet him, and we introduced ourselves. He was an Alaska State Trooper named Scott (last name w/held) who primarily works F&W enforcement. This man was a cop and he did what good cops do. He asked me questions. He checked my documents. He did a visual of my camp area. He let me talk, and he listened for clues or inconsistencies. He wrote notes. He was very polite and very pro in his behavior. I of course was 100% cooperative, having nothing to hide. He thanked me and flew away in his bright colored bird.

    If you're thinking of ever not cooperating with Alaska F&W troopers, my advice is to reconsider. You might think you've got a loophole...an out...or you're smarter than they are. You don't, and you aren't. These men can and will employ every modern technique in existence to deter, catch and successfully prosecute violators. Most importantly; they have the power and the will to keep after a violator until hell is frozen. You might be convicted of a lesser charge...or no charge...but you'll spend a lot of money, time and sweat getting there.

    Far better to pass up that questionable bull, and try to kill a 100% legal moose. Do right by Alaska and her laws. If you screw up...man up and do the right thing. Remember this very good saying: You can't save your face AND your ass at the same time.

    From troopers to prosecutors to judges, a violator who tries to beat them is going to have his hands full, and pockets empty. If you violate and then try to slide? You don't have my sympathy or anger; but you have some of my pity, because you are one very misdirected and unintelligent person.

    All my best to our true sportsmen.

  2. #2
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    I seen that red Robinson also. He was doing a lot of flying up and down the valley's of the entire area. He circled my gutpile/carcass also, but there wasn't much to look at as a brownie had it covered a few hours after we finished up. Good to see that they are patrolling all these areas. I seen one bull come out that, to me, looked to be a sublegal moose. He had 2 brow tines on each side, and one little kicker that I dont think qualified as a point. He was well under 50". The guy must've been pretty confident as he was packing out mid day with people around.

  3. #3
    Member MaximumPenetration's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Dill View Post
    You might think you've got a loophole...an out...or you're smarter than they are. You don't, and you aren't.
    I liked your post and agree with you except for the point in which you make the automatic assumption that the troopers are smarter than all hunters. It makes an otherwise intelligent post invalid. Please don't insult everyone reading this post by stating that all troopers are smarter than they are. It doesn't make sense.

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    Good thread.
    The State F & G were flying in the blue and white Trooper helo out of Cantwell this season, although I have talked with our local F & G officer yet, I did see about a dozen or so Moose and Caribou racks in front of the Trooper- F & G compound shortly after the helo arrived.
    Most violations still boil down to one thing, failure to immediately cut the field harvest ticket. So simple to do, so amazing so many don't.

    Recently I heard on the north side of the Alaska range, State F & G enforcement were being 'heloed' outside of Denali park boundaries
    by a Park service helo, checking hunters on State lands. What really caught my attention with these reports, was a uniformed Park ranger was riding along in the helo too. No reports of the Federal ranger approaching hunters landed on, but just seems odd for the Feds to provide this service outside of the park.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumPenetration View Post
    Please don't insult everyone reading this post by stating that all troopers are smarter than they are. It doesn't make sense.


    There was never an insult intended. I think anyone reading my post understands how my statement was meant. "If you're thinking of ever not cooperating with Alaska F&W troopers, my advice is to reconsider. You might think you've got a loophole...an out...or you're smarter than they are. You don't, and you aren't."

    I'm talking specifically about the jobs performed by the troopers...their knowledge of the law...their abilities to catch violators...how well they do what they do. Maybe there is someone out there who thinks they know more about F&W laws, regs, enforcement, intelligence, methods, techniques and investigative skills than do the Alaska State Troopers who specialize in wildlife enforcement. I'd invite that person to stand up and declare such at this time. I'm betting there won't be many who think they are smarter about what troopers do, than the troopers who do it for a profession.

    If there are any...good luck...tell us how it all went.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Seems reasonable to me if they were patrolling the boundary. If they find someone hunting inside the park then the parkie takes it, outside then the state boys. No reason to spend 2x as much fuel to cover both sides of an invisible line.

    That said I will still not be talking to any troopers beyond what is required by law. I got burned once when I was a kid and wont let it happen again. It was a hard lesson to learn as I grew up thinking the police were there to protect good people. I was educated that troopers are there to build a case, nothing more and nothing less. They will use all sorts of tactics to do so, and the "gotcha" look in the troopers eyes when he got me (18 at the time) to implicate myself in a crime through a seemingly innocent conversation.

    My "crime": I drove down a well traveled road looking for a place to camp to hunt a no vehicle hunting area in as unfamiliar place. Guns locked up in cases in the back of the truck. I stopped as the road appeared to be turning into the NMVA shaded area on the crummy map in the reg book. I turned around and immediately headed out. For my mistake I had to fight a Class A misdemeanor charge. Sad thing for me was I actually thought the trooper would point me in the right direction, which is why I talked so freely with him in the first place. The charges were dropped by the DA but the lesson was still learned. Like my old man says "fool me once....."

    Just an FYI, the punishment I faced for my wrong turn is the same as a drug dealer caught with 3/4 ounce of pot on them.

  7. #7

    Thumbs up

    Shushhhhhhhhhhhhh....Any lawyer worth his salt will give you the same advice.

    OMG....I let my speed get out of control as I decended that steep grade...better call the Troopers and turn myself in.
    Shootfire, I didn't realize the roads were that slick when I went in the ditch. I confess, I was driving too fast for conditions, I need to call the Troopers and turn myself in. Dang that second beer really affected me, on that empty stomach...better call the Troopers and see if they will let me submit to a breathalyzer test.

    Bottom line is that everyone needs to know how to respond to LEO and their line of questioning. If they had the answers, they wouldn't be asking questions or standing around listening to you talk.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

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    Member ironartist's Avatar
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    I ate a ticket on a bear bait thing cuz the trooper said I was wrong with location, I should have fought it finding out now that Alaska maps are incorrect and they are now spending millions remapping the state. What I say when talking to law enforcement is not to volunteer information
    Visions Steel/841-WELD(9353)
    "Rebellion is in my blood, I was born an American"
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  9. #9

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    Yes and No to troopers. They are not there to be your friend. I am courteous and ask to be excused after license has been checked. Anything beyond that is fishing and I'm hunting, not fishing. I will not lie but neither will I volunteer anything.

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    I don't volunteer information. I've had more than one trooper try to bait me into admitting something I wasn't doing. Or saying something that might lead to further investigation. I had a boat full of subsistance halibut once and the trooper kept asking me how many were "sport fish". Just hoping I would say the wrong answer. At the same time I give those guys my respect.

    But to say they know more about the regs than us is not entirely true. I've had the troopers pop open the reg book more than once just to find out they were wrong. To their credit they were willing to discuss the issue with me instead of just writing a ticket.
    I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by K Dill View Post
    You might think you've got a loophole...an out...or you're smarter than they are. You don't, and you aren't.
    I was taught at a very early age about the Bell Curve and how it relates to our world. Of course most of us consider ourselves to be of Average Intelligence. Therefore, that would put us right in the middle of the curve. What this has always meant to me is that...every other person I meet is smarter than me and visa versa.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  12. #12

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    "What this has always meant to me is that...every other person I meet is smarter than me and visa versa. "

    That's a great (and funny!) point. Worth remembering. I was taught that you won't be worried about the cop in your mirror if you're not speeding.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by K Dill View Post
    I was taught that you won't be worried about the cop in your mirror if you're not speeding.
    Maybe....unless he has a quota yet unfilled or your license plate is covered in mud or snow! I simply slow down a mite, let'em pass and get the next guy.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    Maybe....unless he has a quota yet unfilled or your license plate is covered in mud or snow! I simply slow down a mite, let'em pass and get the next guy.
    Possibly. Or you were doing 15 over just a few miles back. Or you were paranoid....or cynical about cops. I'm with you though; stay within the law and give them no reason to scrutinize me extra.

  15. #15
    Member MaximumPenetration's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBoater View Post
    I don't volunteer information. I've had more than one trooper try to bait me into admitting something I wasn't doing. Or saying something that might lead to further investigation. I had a boat full of subsistance halibut once and the trooper kept asking me how many were "sport fish". Just hoping I would say the wrong answer. At the same time I give those guys my respect.

    But to say they know more about the regs than us is not entirely true. I've had the troopers pop open the reg book more than once just to find out they were wrong. To their credit they were willing to discuss the issue with me instead of just writing a ticket.
    Offer no information to troopers, ever. They are trying to bust you for anything they can.

    Last year, one of my hunting partners killed a 46" 2x2 bull in unit 20D any bull area. When he drove home to the Kenai Peninsula, he got stopped on the highway north of Sterling because his rack was visible and a game warden wanted to have a look. After he asked about the rack, my buddy told him where he killed it and that it was 46". The game warden immediately told him it was illegal and that he would have to confiscate it. My buddy told him the mile marker where our camp was from the highway and gave him our phone numbers to check out the kill site (there were still 5 of us in camp out of Tok). The warden continued to harrass him and forced him to dig out the hind quarters and show him proof of sex, which he did. Then the warden took his name, phone number, home address, and said he would "check out the regs and decide whether or not to come get the moose". He told my friend he actually didn't have hunting regs with him. My friend bid him good luck and asked the warden for help putting the meat sacks back in his pickup. The warden responded with "I have more important things to do, like catching young guys like you that are out poaching illegal moose."

    The guy was a total A-hole and may have been in his rights to look at the meat and such, but also refused to look at a fuel receipt my buddy offered up from a Tok gas station that morning. That game warden was just out to harrass people.

    If you are out moose hunting and a warden asks to see your hunting license, tell him you are on a nature hike and just carrying a rifle for protection. Unless you actually kill an animal or admit to being out hunting, they have no right to see your license or tag. Give them as little information as possible. If you end up shooting a moose 10 minutes later and the warden comes back, tell him you decided to start hunting and stop the nature hike. He can't do anything about it.

  16. #16
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    K Dill...I liked the post, I think MaxP your being a bit hard on him. This written communication does not reflect what he was thinking. I am guessing more along the lines of they are smarter when it comes to the process of busting a violator.

    I work with cops all day long, no I am not one. These guys are the human garbage collectors of humanity. One minute they are checking out a illegal moose kill and the next they are busting a child molester. They have a tough job, it is my opinion that the only coping mech for this type of job is to get that cop attitude we all hate. I don't think they ever switch it off when they have the badge on. They handle things the same way every call, that's how they stay safe and do a good job.

    I for one don't like the 50+ rule, my eyesight is getting worse and worse pretty soon I'm gonna sue the state for discrimination via ADA (Cant see anything). Ill have to bring along someone to help me figure it out, sad thought.
    As Alaska continues to grow, I hate to say it but, soon it will be drawing permit only on the road system. Way too many hunters and not enough moose if the pop keeps growing. I personally see lots of pressure from the military bases. No disrespect but the military guys are killers, they want to hunt everything they can. It adds to the pressure because they (hunters) all want to get their successful hunts in before they ship out or get moved to the next base. Before you jump on me, it could be said for many transient workers in the state. It is and will remain a place to get yours and then move away for a large part of the population. The AK lifers look at wildlife and the management a little different than these types.

    just my thoughts
    Matt

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    I agree with a lot of what you said, I too have no sympathy for people who deliberately break F&G regs. You must be a Trooper or cop to think a person should give up his constitutional rights to not incriminate yourself.

    I used to be a person who thought all police officers were the highest caliber of people, not any more. When it comes to fish and game reg. they do not treat all people the same. If you are a village native you can do just about anything and not be charged. A person who makes an honest mistake beyond his control, turns himself in, as you say ďman upĒ a phrase only used by officers looking for a easy kill. That person is given no mercy, none, where is the justice, the compassion???????????????????

    Several years ago I found myself in just a situation; four guys were 4-wheeling down a trail in unit 13 and shot a sub legal bull next to our camp. I went over to see what happened; they were surprised to see me. One of the guys told the other three, letís get our knives and get off the trail. The next thing I knew they were racing down the trail. Facing a $1500 fine, loss of a $1000 rifle and a ATV, we broke camp and left the moose behind. I did not know about 5 AAC 92.140 at the time. I now know what I need to do, to protect myself and do the right thing.

    Letís say it was possible to call the trooper; what would I say the truth, who would believe it, I would not, and I was there.
    ************************************************** **********************************
    The following information is for the person who finds himself in a no win situation in which he does not want to walk away from his legal responsibility of turn in game to the authority. That he had nothing to do in the killing of the animal and if he does he will be prosecuted for doing the right thing.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What can a hunter do to protect himself and still obey the law?
    Letís say you came across an animal that was taken illegally and it is still warm. By law, you must transport the game to the nearest office of F&G or Trooper or you will be breaking the law. If you are stopped, by a trooper before you arrive at the nearest office, you are dead meat and you will be charged with multiple counts along with everybody in your hunting party. You getting a ticket is only part of your problems. The trooper can and will take your rifle, atv, truck, boat and what every he wants to force you into pleading guilty or loose everything. If you plead innocent and win, it will still cost you thousands of $$$$ and this will not include the cost of defending the rest of your hunting party; or one person plead guilty.

    If this happens to you, it is easy to do the right thing and avoid conviction. You must remember two things and do six things.
    Remember: 1) You cannot be convicted of unlawful possession or transportation of game meat you have salvaged to surrender to authorities per, 5 AAC 92.140);
    2) ((((Keep your mouth shut)))). As a suspect, you have the right to remain silent. The trooper will be recording everything you say.

    Do these six things:
    1) Turn in the meat.
    2) State, only that you are turning in salvaged meat, and provide your driverís license for identification. If he asks for your hunting license tell him to ask your lawyer. You are not hunting and thereís no reason he needs it. If you give it to him and he does not return it, you cannot do any more hunting.
    3) Politely explain that you may be a suspect and that you have nothing else to add, pursuant to your right.
    4) Say nothing else!
    5) When/if you get the citation, plead not guilty.
    6) At trial, tell the judge that you wish to take the Fifth Amendment and offer that you were legally transporting the meat to F&G as allowed by 5AAC 92.140.
    Above all, do not let the troopers intimidate you. Ignore their threats and remain silent. They depend on you to convict yourself with your own mouth because they have no witnesses and no evidence as to what happened.
    Remember, they have the burden of proof, and if you follow the above, you will win.

  18. #18
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Where do I go to find out if I'm a "true sportsman"?
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Where do I go to find out if I'm a "true sportsman"?
    I don't think you can get there with a map.

  20. #20
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Where do I go to find out if I'm a "true sportsman"?
    you'll get a note in the mail after you pay the membership fee's
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

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