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Thread: Help build the perfect Canoe

  1. #1
    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default Help build the perfect Canoe

    Well I made some progress with a builder about building a bigger but lighter canoe for hunting.

    I need your thoughts and ideas on all of the features that is needed and wanted.

    Something in the 20' class

    What hull shape?

    What lenght?

    What Weight?

    What options, big or small?

    What accessories?

    What capacity?

    What motor ability?

    Is there anything that I'm forgetting?

    Please chime in on if we could get it done would you be serious about buying one?

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    What features or abilities do you want to create in this Perfect Canoe that the existing Scott Albany does not have today?

    Possibly lots lighter, if you can still have it be way tough?

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    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    What features or abilities do you want to create in this Perfect Canoe that the existing Scott Albany does not have today?

    Possibly lots lighter, if you can still have it be way tough?
    I'm not sure and thats why I'm asking. I've seen many on here state that this canoe had that and that conoe had this. Obviously the albany is a good one but at a 185lbs it isn't. What do you want the gunnels made of? Oar stations? Would the Y stern on the northwoods be better and help. One canoe has splash guards, do they help and would you want them? Many have said that they like the esquif but it only goes to 17'. What are the features that you like instead of the albany or the Osage or the grumman. What was or is the best seat design? What if you could get a 1900lbs in a 20' that was a 100 to 120 lbs? What features provide a more stable plateform. How high do you need the sides to be?

    Please share you experiences and details of what you would like.

    Thanks

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    also motor if you put anything pass a very small kicker, [very small] , the canoe has to be fairley stiff so when you turn under full power the canoe will turn an not fold up, even the old 19 Grummans with a 15 / 10 would bend a little an cause trouble after lots of use ,
    [middle seat area]

    SID

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    You need to take a look at the scott hudson bay. It is as close to the perfect boat for what you discribe as you can get. I have built tons of strip boats and did more fiber glass custom lay up kayaks then I'd like to even think about and there is basically no realistic way to get better preformance and a lighter hull without seriously compromising safey........unless you opted for kevlar, it is avaible as a special order from scott.


    If I knew all my trips would be on big water and I had the cash to play with I'd take a serious look at a st james bay as well.
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    Mine is set up with plastic gunnels, I like that rot isn't an issue and it seals well with black epoxy or vynal caulk. Spash gaurds are a must for bigger boats at any kind of speed if ya want dry passangers. Only change I'd make to mine is I'd get a secound motor, a jet drive instead of a prop. Seats and the other stuff is really a mater of taste. There is no need to be concerned about sability in the HB. She won't tip even with my 6'4" 210 pound butt standing on the gunnel.


    PS She is 21 foot long, 54 inch beam and rated for 2,000 capacity, in a 250 pound hull! Dose just under 20 mph empty with a 20 horse tohatsu pushing.
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    Default OK, here's some specs to want for that canoe

    I second the spray rails as mandatory.

    I'm leaning more towards surface drive than jet. There's a guy on this forum that has more experience with equipping canoes for skinny water than anyone else here I'm aware of, and he himself gave up on the jet as an option after having bought one.

    Regarding how high the sides should be, I think Scott Canoes got that one just right.

    Regarding the hull shape, I again lean towards the Scott design (yes, I'm biased) in the areas of a mostly flat bottom, decent keel, very wide transom, beamy in general, and (don't know what you call it) that little cutaway in the main hull just ahead of the transom.

    D rings for lining would be built in and attached hell4strong.

    Optional accessory would be a snap on plastic roof that uses supports like cheap dome tents use only stronger, and encloses the captain and a ways forward too.

    Snap on spray skirt must also be an available option.

    As long as you're decking it out in grand style, also include Mainer's poor-mans-lift design, since the only added cost is 3 very small hell4strong boards and some hole drilling.

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    How about Kevlar construction, with a 1" false floor for the flotation foam, this would also lend strength to prevent the problem Sid spoke of.

    Thin UHMW for the bottom. Since we probably will have a keel, make it of UHMW too- 3/4" thick, 1 1/2" wide, by however long the hull is. That would help hold the thin UHMW sheet on the bottom.

  9. #9

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    The 21' Hudson Bay is a great canoe, some improvements I would add would be. Use bed liner on keels to minimize hull damage on rocky
    landings. A better way to allow water drain to the stern water puddles behind the bottom supports. A factory spray skirt would be nice or a affordable after market one. The thwarts make it difficult to get around in, do not think they could be removed though. Minor
    things in great all around freighter.

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    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Some post have been very heplful and other are just making comments. I really need some solid input and those that are answering some of the q's it's much appreciated. Come on guys..... many of you are the experts or have a heck of alot more canoe experience than me. Just to state that the HB is a great canoe doesn't help one bit. It's not the perfect canoe because it weighs 250 lbs! PLEASE PLEASE read my posts and answer some of the specific areas. You cant tell me if we could get something close to 2000 lbs capacity with a hull weight of say 140 or so that it would be more desirable. Just about any product in the world is made by several manufactures and one will have a certain feature thats great and another will have some other feature that is great but you can never get one to have them all. This may be a chance to get all of those little things wrapped up into one.

    Familyman ---- hell4strong? I'm a little slow.....are you just saying something really really strong or is that some specific product. Thanks for your specific input...very helpful

    How about some input on seat design.

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    Wonder if something like the esquiff would work,maybe 20' long made of royalex but with some lightweight aluminum ribs in the floor like the scott HB to strengthen it a bit. a beam of approx 50" and a depth of 18"-20". need splash rails for sure.

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    Also I would use plastic type of gunnells.A seat at the stern and one maybe a couple feet back from the bow(fixed seats) with maybe a block installed mid canoe so if you wanted to add a seat there you could(similar to what scott does in the bow of the HB). with a capacity of 1700lbs-2000lbs pushed by a 10hp-15hp any manufacture that made such a canoe in the 130lb-160lb range would sell alot of they,especially if the kept them in the $2000 range

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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Tboehm

    What exactly do you plan on biulding this dream boat out of that will give you a hull wieght of 140 pounds and capacity of 2000? Seriously that material dose not exisit! At least not at a price any of us could afford. Again kevlar will shave off about 40-50 pounds, anymore and it will not hold up too the stresses of actually using the thing. Trust me I have seen more than one ultralight racing kayak fold in half the first time a wave hit it despite the fact it was built by a man with years of experiance. As Sid pointed out the grumans (reinforced aluminum) fold from the force of a 10-15 horse motor!

    As too hull design well scott got it right! They took a couple of thousand years of native experiance tweeked it with modern materials and bingo as close to the perfect freighter as your going to get. You want to spend 5times the cost of a HB thats your biz but other than a few minor tweeks you will not get a better boat. You asked and we answered, dont want too hear that the boat your looking for is avaible fine. Dont get snoty with us for being honest and BTW have you even gone to the scott website or ridden in one?
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    Default hell4strong and second captains chair

    Quote Originally Posted by tboehm View Post
    Familyman ---- hell4strong? I'm a little slow.....are you just saying something really really strong or is that some specific product. Thanks for your specific input...very helpful

    How about some input on seat design.
    Hell4Strong is merely a descriptive term meaning strong lika hell, i.e., very strong. Like for the cheap mainer-lift design, your motor staying attached to the boat depends on the strength of those boards.

    Another neat feature to have (that I don't) would be to provide some sort of attachement thingy every foot or so along the gunnels so as to provide a more secure place to strap down the tarp that many put over their load. A spray skirt might make this option somewhat un-needed, except tying down your load would be good in case of upset; a snap on spray skirt isn't going to hold your load in if you go over.

    Also, more attachment points for lanyards. Every object of substance (except my ballast when I travel alone) in my boat has a lanyard that attaches it to my boat so if I go over I can eventually retrieve my stuff. I presently attach my lanyards to my thwarts but sometimes that makes for a too long lanyard.

    My Albany's gunnels are real wood. Yes, probably too heavy, and they'll likely rot before the rest of the boat, but the thing I like about them is that I can attach anything to them solidly. Heck, I could put oars on it and it would support that I bet. I have attached to my gunnels a small fish finder, and also a bracket to securely hold a gps in place.
    So, the suggestion here is to make the gunnels from something that lets the boat's owner attach more stuff to them dependably.

    On seats, I'd think simple padded on top molded-into-the-hull-bench (flotation is inside) with a water pass thru under every one except the rearmost, so as to provide a single bailing point for the captain.

    Also think about a second captains seat that is assuming that he's using a rather long tiller extension; which (I could be wrong) I think bushrat calls a seymour stick. Mine isn't as long as his I think; mine is a 4 foot woven carbon fiber (its hell4strong) I got from Carbon Marine for a pretty penny.

    I have a brother that puts a sail on his canoe. Don't know anything about that myself, but if you're looking at options for a perfect canoe maybe this is one to look at. Could be its a small sail good only for going downwind would be optimal, which would avoid any need to have daggerboards, and would allow an extremely simple design/setup, and result in the sail assembly that when not being used would be extremely small, inside the boat.

    Keep this going tboehm. I don't mind tossing ideas into the pot but the better part for me is reading what others have to say. Let's get bushrat, kandik, and John Klingel (king of lifts in Alaska) to respond; PM them and ask'm nice - maybe they haven't noticed this thread. Those three have more experience that everyone that has responded so far, put together. Also pry some more info out of Mainer; he hasn't begun to tell you all he knows yet on this subject.

    Ask kandik what he wishes he had on his present canoe that would make his surface drive work better. My albany was designed before surface drives existed, so likely there are improvements to be made on that subject; I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick P View Post
    Tboehm

    What exactly do you plan on biulding this dream boat out of that will give you a hull wieght of 140 pounds and capacity of 2000? As too You want to spend 5times the cost of a HB thats your biz but other than a few minor tweeks you will not get a better boat. You asked and we answered, dont want too hear that the boat your looking for is avaible fine. Dont get snoty with us for being honest and BTW have you even gone to the scott website or ridden in one?
    Rick P ....Right now there is available an 18' fiberglass that has a 1500 capacity and weighs 98 lbs. So I don't think that it may be that far of a stretch to add 2' and hit. I understand that many issues may come up with this and this is something in the planning stage. I was asked for a wish list of items and option that most people would want to incorperate and get it right and solid estimates on price and weight. Heck it may not be possible but they are willing to talk about it and look into it. I know that many have asked about other options and are always looking for the newest and greatest.

    I did ask and you didn't answer..all you keep saying is that the HB is the greatest and only thing.

    Snoty?...... Not really sure where that is comming from...especially when I use word like please. How hard is it to answer specific q's about what you like instead of just saying it cant be done? Not trying to start a Pis**** contest with you and I really would like your input. If I said something that doesn't sit well with you, I'M sorry. I fully realize that this may not work but at least I'm trying and learning along the way and there is a chance that a great canoe could come out of the effort.

    As far as cost, I'm sure that it won't be the 5k that was quoted for the kevlar Scott.

    As far as riding in one, no I have never had the chance and there are no around here but yes I have been on there web site and did talk with the sales manager.

    Familyman, grit, kk alaska, Harry hyde....again, thanks for the input. These are the kind of things that I'm looking for and very helpful.

    Familyman... will try your idea and get in touch with those you mentioned to get some additional input.

    Here is a example of the strength of the canoes that they make http://www.clippercanoes.com/articles.php Take a look and see what you think.

    Please keep the ideas comming and I will put all suggestions into a proposed format and let everyone know what comes of it.

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    I dont think you could go much lighter than the Scott HB and not have issues with a outboard canoe. The stresses that the sides and
    stern take are substanial. In heavy water I felt quite comfortable with the strength of the HB. Spend a little time in one in big water
    and you will soon see that it is important. The stern is built like a commercial boat and the stresses of a 125# outboard require strength.
    What I am saying is once you get to the size of canoe of a Scott HB powered with a 15 to 20 hp outboard you need a substanial boat,
    and I dont see how you could do that in lighter weight without compromising strength. And a little weight in big water is a good thing.
    Some of our lakes are like inland seas and can be quite deadly, I bought Ricks boat to run Skilak & Tustemena Lakes and at 250# with a
    canoe dolly I could beach it overnight.

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    Default Ride in one, and no Scotts in NC

    Quote Originally Posted by tboehm View Post
    As far as riding in one, no I have never had the chance and there are no around here but yes I have been on there web site and did talk with the sales manager.
    Not to sound too overly biased (which I admittedly am) towards what Scott Canoes has done, please do get a ride in one the first available moment you might have a chance to.

    They have a feeling of SOLID, and SAFE. I wouldn't take my kids out in a tippy canoe in Alaska - It'd be too easy to kill one or all.

    I find it a great coincidence that you mention there are no Scott Canoes around you there in NC, because just a couple of hours ago I had 3 guests here at my house, visiting from NC, and they just had to see my Scott. So I made'm work for their grub, and we uncovered it and tipped it right side up, and they said they've never seen a canoe so large. And Rick P's is 2 1/2 feet longer than mine I believe (my Albany vs. his Hudson Bay, both made by Scott).

    So we put a few supports down on my lawn and tipped it back upside down; now my gunnels will be up off the ground for this winter. I sure am glad those NC folks needed to see my canoe; they did me a huge favor; that canoe is very heavy to flip over, and flip back. That's the reason its previous owner sold it to me; because it was too heavy for him to handle.

    Sorry to go on, tboehm, but the coincidence re: NC and no Scott canoes there was too coincidental to not mention for me.

    Having said that, have you tried to call up or email Scott Canoes and see if they have any NC leads for you re: owners or dealers? Pat at Scott Canoes does hang out on this site also, but I forget his username.

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    Thumbs up ditto what kk said

    Quote Originally Posted by kk alaska View Post
    I dont think you could go much lighter than the Scott HB and not have issues with a outboard canoe...
    I ditto every last thing you say there kk.
    But its cool he's looking into it. Mainer on this forum talks about this exact sort of thing too, despite him being a fan of my Albany.

    I too have had mine out in heavy seas; 3-4 foot waves across a 8-10 mile long lake, and though I got wetter'n heck, I never once thought I was going to tip over.

  19. #19

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    David Hazen in "The Strippers Guide to Canoe-building" has plans for a 100 pound 20' Micmac cedar strip canoe that he claims will haul 3000 pounds holding 6" of freeboard. The dimensions are 20' long, 48" wide and 18" deep with a wine glass stern. I believe it takes a 10hp long shaft. I'm skeptical about the 100 pound weight but I do believe it would weight under 140 pounds and carry 2000 pounds with about 10" of freeboard. It has a lot of tumble home so it would be good in big water with a skirt. The wine glass stern would be easier to paddle from the rear. When I get done piddling with an antique retro in the garage (and my wife forgets about the smell) I plan to build a 20' Micmac for kicks.

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    I would love to get my hands on one and there is still a chance that I may buy one on the way when we move if a better option cant be had or found. When I said none around here, I guess that I should have said, I've never seen one but I live right on the coast and it's not a big canoe area and I've live here for 12 years and spent plenty of time on the water. I hadn't thought about asking if they have any local owners that I can contact and will try that. Thanks for the Idea.

    Familyman....Tried to add some more rep for the great input put was told that I had to share the wealth.

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