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Thread: Logic behind guiding requirement?

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    Default Logic behind guiding requirement?

    I'm wondering who knows the logic or reasoning behind the requirement for guide for nonresidents hunting sheep or goats in Alaska? (I'll skip the bear hunting requirement since there is an aspect of dangerous game involved in that hunt.) I'm a long-time resident of AK and I have been able to enjoy week-long hunting trips for sheep simply by loading up a pack and picking up a harvest ticket. Now I may be moving to the lower 48 and if I do I will not be able to hunt sheep in AK without hiring a guide for about $10,000+.

    My first thought is that there is a safety aspect to the guide requirement. But that makes little sense because I can still load up my backpack and travel in the backcountry for as long as I want and I do not need to hire a local guide. I can also hang out in the high country and photograph those same sheep, again without hiring a guide. So if I can travel freely in that backcountry as a nonresident, why do I suddenly need a guide if I want to hunt sheep or goats? Furthermore, I know plenty of long-term AK residents who know little about backcountry travel, etc. yet if they decide that they want to hunt sheep all they must do is buy a general resident license and pick up a harvest ticket.

    My second thought was that perhaps the guide requirement is to make sure that non-residents only harvest legal sheep. But again there is little logic to this point. First, non-residents don't need a guide to hunt moose, even though most hunting areas have size requirements for legal bulls. Second, there is no requirement for residents to have a guide to ensure that they shoot legal rams.

    It seems like the State has essentially set up a system to ensure income for guides, while taking away opportunities for many hunters. (I don't want to begrudge any of you guides from making a living and I know that many people enjoys lots of benefits from hunting with guides.) I'm wondering what others think about this situation.

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    Member shphtr's Avatar
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    Default guides for AK hunting

    Yes, it does seem mostly that way.

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    Member dwhunter's Avatar
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    Sheepguy,

    That is something that has gone round and round many times, being a former resident of AK I am with you and understand where you are coming from.

    I will keep my beliefs out of this ring to save the argument.

    You will get different answers from all sides of the house on this one

    Doug

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    I believe there is a bit of a benefit to guides intentionaly built in, but I believe it also keeps the number of non-resident hunters low.
    We are already seeing more restriction on residents as far as areas & tag numbers for sheep & goats. Can you imagine how it would be if unguided non-residents could pick up a goat or sheep tag like they do a moose tag? What areas were left open would probably all be permit entry.
    That $10,000.00 is what limits there numbers & impact (to some extent).
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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    I do not know the reason but my guess is that it is in place to protect the animals.

    Goats are very sensitive to over harvest, and even a small harvest of adult females can tip the balance between increasing and decreasing populations.

    Sheep are put on a pedistal and are THE trophy animal for North America. If there was not a guiding requirement, I'm sure there would be a tidal wave of orange heading north, and odds for draws would skyrocket.
    It's the journey, not the destination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    I believe there is a bit of a benefit to guides intentionaly built in, but I believe it also keeps the number of non-resident hunters low.
    We are already seeing more restriction on residents as far as areas & tag numbers for sheep & goats. Can you imagine how it would be if unguided non-residents could pick up a goat or sheep tag like they do a moose tag? What areas were left open would probably all be permit entry.
    That $10,000.00 is what limits there numbers & impact (to some extent).
    Vance:

    I imagine that the "benefit" of hiring a guide is a higher success rate, but by mandating a guide for sheep and goats that "success" comes with a pretty hefty price tag because guides have a captured audience in that all non-residents are required to hire a guide. While there may be some increase in non-residents hunting sheep if they don't have to pay $10-12K for the experience, I don't think that the number would be that high because you still have to pay air fare to AK, plus pay for non-resident tags.

    If the resource is able to handle the pressure, and it appears that the sheep numbers are not being adversely affected by current hunting, then why does the state have to legislate a requirement that essentially only permits wealthy non-residents the chance to hunt sheep or goats in AK on a regular basis?

    It would seem like the state would gain a better benefit from non-resident hunters if it simply increased the price for a non-resident sheep tag and eliminated the guide requirement. That would give non-residents the choice between hunting on their own (or with a resident hunting partner) or hiring a guide and it would put money into the state coffers, perhaps for the benefit of sheep instead of having the money go straight into the pocket of a guide (who doesn't even have to be an AK resident!)

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    Sheepguy
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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    . "While there may be some increase in non-residents hunting sheep if they don't have to pay $10-12K for the experience, I don't think that the number would be that high because you still have to pay air fare to AK, plus pay for non-resident tags."-----------------
    so you think if hunting sheep was $10,000 cheaper not very many people would come up and hunt them? why? if bighorn in alberta only cost me a tag and license and just get there, i'd have been there 20 times by now! who cares how low my success rate is, i could afford to try it several times in a row!

    "If the resource is able to handle the pressure, and it appears that the sheep numbers are not being adversely affected by current hunting, then why does the state have to legislate a requirement that essentially only permits wealthy non-residents the chance to hunt sheep or goats in AK on a regular basis?"--------------
    wealthy....if a guys owns a new snowmachine is he wealthy? some clients take out loans to do their hunts, some on payment plans, just because they sacrifice to do something they've dreamed of, don't make them wealthy. this is one of the biased words.the rugys that hunt sheep every year are in a class of money like some alaskas, they've got it. but the majority is no where near that.

    "It would seem like the state would gain a better benefit from non-resident hunters if it simply increased the price for a non-resident sheep tag and eliminated the guide requirement. That would give non-residents the choice between hunting on their own (or with a resident hunting partner) or hiring a guide and it would put money into the state coffers, perhaps for the benefit of sheep instead of having the money go straight into the pocket of a guide (who doesn't even have to be an AK resident!)"---------------
    The state gets money from guides in more ways that you can imagine, if they dropped the guide requirement and upped the tag fees you may sell more tags, but its gonna be hard pressed to make up for land use fees, paperwork fees and general money turned over in the state, from air taxis, hotels, gas stations, you name it. everyone u phere would be trying to cut all the corners to save a buck.

    What gets me with all these discussions is right now...as the situation stands people are complaing about sheep hunting pressure and too many folks on a runway and so on. the state is doing the residents a favor by requiring guides, like it was posted before without guides you'd have a ton more people on those runways and valleys. i really don't think this is an exgauration, it would be absurd how many people would be out. Then all of sheep country would have to go to a draw, cause all the easy access....14A,13, 16, 20,11,12 would just get hit super hard with hunters, so drawing it would be..since there'd be no guide requirement non res and res would have a equal shot at drawing your tags...how'd that make you feel?

    there are pro's and cons to all these and everyone could argue what they THINK would be the best way to go, how it would benefit them. it wouldnt' suprise me if they dropped the guide requirement, it would only make the non res happy and residents madder and more frustrated. there are only X amount of places to land a plane in sheep country....

    you've got to admit there are benefits to location, where you live, what you sacrifice to live there or not live there. just because you have to move south don't mean you should still have equal rights to the place you don't live in, work in, contribute too, vote about or even see. i dont' feel that idaho should have my needs at heart, each state needs to take care of its own and have some pride about it, we are all americans, it don't mean that everything should be cheaper for you cause you moved?! We have to accept some things as how they are...i can't afford to hunt the lower 48. flat out, not gonna hop on their forum and ask why it can't be cheaper so i can do it, thats not fair to them. the state needs to have its income and its limits and if a guide is what i need, then i need to hire a guide don't matter how much experience i have, its the way its set up. so rather than complain about the system, i'll just make some sacrifices to see if i can pull it off. if not, tough break.

    We all want ours, when we want it, how we want it, with a price we want so we can have it. sometimes its hard to think more than three feet away.
    Last edited by BRWNBR; 02-06-2007 at 13:24. Reason: this outa be interesting...
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  9. #9

    Talking

    Iím almost sure BRWNBR is a guide, if memory serves me.
    Two sides of a coin non-res. want to hunt, guides want a job. Me being a non-res. I want to hunt without putting a second mortgage on my house, and I donít think I should need to. Isnít Alaska apart of the United States? Something about a lot of Federal land in Alaksa?!?!?

    Put Mandatory size restrictions on of game to be taken 50 inch moose, full cull rams ect... give out the tags let the better more dedicated man win!
    There problem solved!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    I believe there is a bit of a benefit to guides intentionaly built in, but I believe it also keeps the number of non-resident hunters low.
    Vance, there are better ways to limit the number of non res hunters than by dollars. The best is to have a drawing just for non-res hunters. Also different requirements for harvest of game can and are used.

    Guides have their place. They offer a valuable service to people who want them. But they shouldn't be forced on anyone.

    sheepguy mentioned bears, being dangerous so it made sense, but realistically, you can run into a bear on any kind of hunt in Alaska. In fact if you score a moose, deer or other game animal, the chances are, you may be luring bears to your location. Most of the horror stories I read about bears on this very site this year involved deer hunters. Go back in the archives.

    There is little logic in requiring someone to have a guide other than to create jobs for guides.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    ya i'm a guide bernie, but a jobs a job and there others out there. i guide one sheep hunter a year so i wouldn't drop down and cry about loosing the guide requiremtn for sheep. just being on this side of the coin i've got a different perspective other than people just wanting cheaper hunts. guides have a place in the hunting industry, if you've never guided or don't spend much time in the BOG, Occupation licensing sect of the world you probalby won't see much of it. To those who don't guide or understand what all is involved it just looks like we're on the gravy train, just drive by and dip in whenever we need some cash flow.

    Its funny that no one ever called and asked someone about this guide req question that keeps coming up.

    Another funny is the mortage the house that every one uses...funny stuff. we call it saving money in my house.

    one of the problems in this world is people think everything should be fair...for them. some think just because they live in the US they should have the "right" to hunt alaska without a guide....IE cost. why do they think that? what do they do here? just come up, skimp on money and try to get a sheep and go home? milk our resources, spend as little of yours as you can and get back to where you drop all your coin. states run on money, not thanks.

    Ya i'm a guide, but i don't feel that if i went to another state they should roll ot the carpet and treat me like the guy who spends 360+ days a year there and lives down the street. Not my state, not my town, not my game. If i want to enjoy the fruits of someone elses labor..ie fish and game, conservation, state programs for wildlife...ect. i'm gonna have to be willing to pay my share of it to enjoy it.

    Someone wants a sheep in alaska and their not willing to pay for it tells me this...i want what you have to offer but i don't want to give you anything for it. I think your state, should give me the chance to enjoy your sheep hunts, at a minimal cost to me so i can afford to do it. oh and in turn you can come here stay in a hotel and shoot a turkey for 50 bucks...sound good?? Well dang, i think ford should give me a new 250 at a price i can afford cause i can't afford it now, only the wealthy can.. and thats not fair. i pay taxes..i'm a US citizen ....right? why won't they do that for me?

    To much is put on what people want for a price they can afford. maybe the state of alaska figured it out, that having a guide requirment would boost the economny of alaska while preserving some of it wildlife with established guides that are a great source of information and data for fish and game since they frequent an area and see continuing game movements and changes. rather than DIY hunter who shows up once, don't care how he leaves it and don't know anything about what happens in three weeks with the game or eviromental habits.
    Kodiak fish and game told me they like guides on the island since they are such a valuable source of information on deer hunts, goat movements bear activity and DIY hunters that are trespassing on private lands, cause they dont' do any research, just figure alaskas big...uhhmmm i'll go here. Its alot more effecient to have a guide there, PAYING TO BE THERE, rather than having to pay fish and game to fly surveys and keep data going. sheep are well documented harvests and guides play a roll, just like everyone else.

    Dropping sheep guide requirments is purely self motivated.Unless i'm blinded by all the money i make (read..joke there) there is no other beneift to alaska or its resources by dropping guide req.
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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    i agree with twodux that non res drawings would make a difference in pressure for sure and alot of discussion has been put on that in past threads.

    "But they shouldn't be forced on anyone."twodux

    I guess i dont' feel like i'm FORCED on anyone, i sell a service if you want it, buy it, if you don't, don't. its like car insurance, i don't want it but i have to pay someone for it if i wanna drive.

    "There is little logic in requiring someone to have a guide other than to create jobs for guides."twodux
    man thats a tough one to swallow. guide requirment is just for guides is how i read that, correct me if i'm wrong. but guides pay alot of money all around the state every year that would be there if the req wasn't in place. The biggest comment i get from land holders is that they'd rather i pay to be on their land and keep my eyes on it to make sure its not being tore up for DIY hunters and atv or something who are trespassing without land use permission. Guides are held accountable for their mistakes on a heavier scale than residnet or unguided hunters, and we've all see how much money illiegal guides can generate in fines!!
    That comment rings of illknowledge and flat bias or personal opinion. Nothing against you twodux, perhaps how you worded it. its tough to add insight in a subject that has very very little knowledge in it and alot of emotion and opinion.
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  13. #13
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepguy View Post
    .....It seems like the State has essentially set up a system to ensure income for guides, while taking away opportunities for many hunters......
    Congratulations. You hit both nails squarely with a single blow.

    That is exactly what is going on:

    1) Provide economic income for guides, and
    2) Eliminate hunters from the field.

    I was involved in a series of letter exchanges with several legislators as well as the BOG after the Timothy Treadwell incident. My proposal was to require a guide for all who were to approach brown bears, sheep, and goats for the purpose of "viewing", photography, research, etc. If the "danger" excuse is real for armed hunters, it is (obviously) there for non-hunters as well.

    As you might imagine, after sending out such a proposal to all 60 legislators as well as the Board of Game, I got little response. For the record, only Lyda Green and Vic Kohring responded, and of those two, only Senator Green pursued it with any interest at all. The Board Support Section actually mailed me a document stating that such review wasn't in the Board's authority.

    I was also engaged in a rather warm discussion on this forum about the situation, as well (before it changed to this board format; it might be found in the archives). Several sheep hunters vigorously defended the guide requirement, and had no moral problems outlining their opinions that regulating non-residents out of the field (similar to what the "subsistence" crowd does to "urban" residents) was a just and moral thing to do.

    It should be obvious what's going on.

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    Default Thats why its Alaska

    Yes BRWNBR is a guide but he is one of the most conscientious people you will here about. He cares about both side of the issues, non-res and res a like. I think he would classify himself as an Alaskan hunter before a guide though.

    We have enough issues with hunting pressure without throwing the doors wide open. This is Alaska, the last frontier thats why so many people want to hunt here. If it is treated like every other place then its going to become them. You want the opportunity to experience the wilderness like it used to be, thats why you come to Alaska and not California.(just an example not bashing the state) Resident hunters have there own feelings toward guides, thinking they are helping take away the res. chances, but I beleive every one of them would stand up for the requirement so as not to let the state be over run with hunters. The state of Alaska has decided the best way to handle this situation, is it the best maybe not, but it is better for Alaskans. If you dont like it move here or stay here and try to change it. (Good luck) If some one from another state tries to tell you the way to handle you resources to their benefit you'll laugh in their face. So someone from a far can't tell us how to manage our wildlife.

    Most everyone in Alaska lives here to enjoy the ambience and solitude you can not find in any other state. We want it that way and will fight to keep it. We are the ones that also live through the winters and pay the higher cost of living. Thats the prices we pay to live here and play here. Why do you think the tourist season is in the summer,Alaska is still Alaska in the winter but few non-res want to come then.

    We just want to protect ours before it becomes yours. I would love to be able to hunt snow sheep and Monogolian Argali, but I dont live there nor want to, and I sure shouldn't have any say in how they are managed.

  15. #15

    Arrow

    I'm not sure how much would change as far as the guides go...there will always be a demand for their services, but drawing would be somewhat harder but quota limits on non-res helps that. Your population increases are more detrimental than non-res. The worst it can get is like all the rest of the states(makes ya just wanna shoot youself thinking about that fact, eh?)

  16. #16

    Cool Guides

    I'm not really qualified to answer this maybe, since I'm not a guide. BUT, IMO if you didn't require guides for non-resident sheep and goat hunters the state might spend a lot of time and money trying to rescue flatlanders from cliffs and slides. I'm not saying all people from the lower 48 are ignorant but they just don't understand the weather changes and conditions in different areas in Alaska, as well as equipment requirements. If you had told me that I needed a tent that will withstand 70 mph winds, Ild of said your nuts. I've got a friend in Louisana who bought a new 4-wheel drive so he wouldn't get stuck in the snow and went to Colorado after the last snow storm. HE GOT STUCK ! He had never been out of the state before.

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    Member Alaskacajun's Avatar
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    What BRWNBR said....

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    Default Brwnbr

    BRWNBR, I have absolutely nothing against you, in fact I have great respect for you. You're one of the most upfront guys here. I'm sure I'd love hunting with you. But I wouldn't want to be forced to hire you or someone else. While non res aren't required to hire you personally, they are required to hire someone. (in exclusive guide areas they are forced to hire a certain guide) And I don't think you can deny that if there wasn't a guide requirement there wouldn't be as much business to go around.

    Yes you sell a service, but if I don't feel I need your service, I shouldn't be required to pay for it. I may have the skill and knowledge so your service is unneeded. If I have to buy insurance to drive, that is to make sure if I have an accident an innocent person isn't stuck with the bill because of my mistake. But say if I was from out of state and wanted to drive in Alaska I was required to have you along in my auto before I could drive, because you were a knowlegable Alaskan driver? Would that be right?

    And as pointed out by someone else in this thread, I could hunt here as a resident for 20 years and have all the proven skills to hunt any animal here, but if I move to another state, all of a sudden I'm not worthy of hunting here on my own? By law I have to hire a guide. To me, that means someone has forced their way into my hunt and I'm required to pay them. There is no logical reason for that other than to make jobs for guides. Also, If my sister from New York City moves here and lives here a year, she suddenly and magically becomes worthy to be my guide on any hunt even though she has never hunted before in her life. She is equal to you BRWNBR with all your years of experience. So if I have a family member here, I can do a do it yourself hunt, but if I don't, I'm forced to hire someone like yourself, no matter what my experience is???? Yes, this law is intended to create jobs for guides. It's pretty obvious. The reason there is an exception for hunting with relatives who live here is, residents vote, and if you make them unhappy, they will vote you out. The reason the requirement to have a guide is for non res only is the same reason. Non res don't vote here.

    And with guided hunts costing more and more, another consequence it, only privileged moneied out of staters can afford to come hunt here. The average guy is out of luck or has to spend money he really can't afford to hunt here. That helps make hunting an elite sort of activity and the biggest difference in the States over other places as far as hunting goes is that anyone can do it here. It's not for the privileged only.

    One last thought........ It's a documented fact that guided hunters have a higher success rate than unguided. So we could actually have more out of state hunters coming up to hunt if they were non guided over guided. The reason being with the lower success rate, the overall number of animals taken wouldn't be any higher.

    I have no problem with you offering your service BRWNBR, In fact if someone inquired about a guide in this area, I'd probably point them your way. I just think it should be a personal choice.

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    Wink It about the money.

    Sheepguy, you are right, it has little to do with, safety, sheep or anything other than money. The guides have got a good thing going, and they don't want to loose it. Any hunting pressure can be elimintated by drawings for non res. As you leave the state and take a glance back, you will discover (the true nature of the force) , so to speak. After all just because you want to hunt on US FEDERAL lands in the state, and, are willing to pay non res tag fees will not sit well with the guides or their lobbies. They can say what they want, I think you already know the answer to this riddle,which by the way keeps comming up. Remember if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck it'a a ---- . Bill.
    ; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. 1 SAMUEL 2;30

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    Default A question for the non-res members

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie1 View Post
    Me being a non-res. I want to hunt without putting a second mortgage on my house, and I donít think I should need to.
    My question to the non-resident members here is: Why are you a non-resident? Why don't you move to Alaska if hunting here is a priority for you?


    As for me, I have made a deliberate choice to make my home here. I could make far more money elsewhere, could live closer to my wife's family, could enjoy warmer weather or lower housing costs (heck, lower everything costs), better universities, etc. etc. etc. These things, however, pale in comparison to being able to enjoy God's creation that is sitting right outside my door. I can hike, fish, hunt, ski, fly, etc. with very little restriction. Nevertheless, it is still a choice. I have given up a certain lifestyle and standard of living to make my home in Alaska.

    If sheep hunting is truly a priority for you, why don't you live here? (Yes, I know it's not as simple as just packing up...the point is that there are benefits and costs regardless of where you choose to live. Less hunting restrictions is one of those benefits reserved for the residents of every state.)

    -Brian

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