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Thread: hydraulic shock through tough hide?

  1. #1

    Default hydraulic shock through tough hide?

    There were a couple different comments made over the past couple days, on a couple of different threads, that have made me re-evaluate my understanding of terminal ballistics.
    I place a lot of stock in the phenomena of hydraulic shock, as put out by high-velocity bullets (assuming that they hold together). But Murphy was just saying on another thread that he doesn't trust any bullet at that velocity when pitted against "tough critters" (ie. coastal brownies).
    Then on another thread somebody said the following:
    The "shock" incurred by a high velocity bullet is in most instances like a shockwave of energy that can literally pulpify an animals lungs and other necessary organs. I must admit, inspecting the larger animals I've seen gun shot (moose) there is a neat little hole in most of the lungs I've seen pierced, but if you look at smaller animals....
    Which made me think- maybe the kind of velocity that produces that "pulpifying" effect is always lost by the time a bullet makes it through the hide and muscle of a moose or brown bear. Maybe that phenomena is not harnessable in regards to those animals, no matter how harnessable it is in regards to lighter animals.
    So, for those of you who have observed organ-pulpification in some animals, my question is this: have you ever seen it in a moose or brown bear?

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    I have seen a 350 gr. 45 caliber bullet out of my .450 Marlin "pulpify" the lungs of a moose. It is not exactly what I would consider "high velocity."
    The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps! (Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945)

  3. #3

    Default Ak257

    The bullet you used to destroy the lungs of this moose did it exit intact or stay in the moose carcass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    The bullet you used to destroy the lungs of this moose did it exit intact or stay in the moose carcass.
    It was recovered under the hide on the far side. Broke a rib on the way in, made Jello out of the lungs, broke a rib on the far side and was found just under the hide.
    The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps! (Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945)

  5. #5

    Default Ak 257

    How much did this bullet weigh when recovered and what condition was it in and at what range did it strike its target?

  6. #6

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    I guess what I'm really trying to figure out here is whether or not there's any terminal advantage to higher velocity on brown bear (obviously there's an advantage in trajectory). In other words, if no bullet out of any cartridge is going to retain enough velocity, by the time it reaches a brownie's vitals, to put out a hydraulic wave there, then I need to radically revamp my idea of bear protection.
    I mean, if that's the case, then a 540 gr. Garrett Hammerhead out of a 45-70 @ 1500 fps is more effective than a 350 gr. .416 bullet @ 2400 fps. Correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    How much did this bullet weigh when recovered and what condition was it in and at what range did it strike its target?
    The attached photo is the bullet as recovered. Not a real good photo, but you can see that it wasn't a perfect mushroom. Weight is 301.6 gr. Range was 248 yards (laser)....what I would consider about the max that I attempt shots with the .450M out of my Marlin GG. I was using the Hornady factory loads with their 350 gr. Interlocks. My buddy was standing by with his .338WM when I took the shot, but it wasn't needed.
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    The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps! (Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945)

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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    I guess what I'm really trying to figure out here is whether or not there's any terminal advantage to higher velocity on brown bear (obviously there's an advantage in trajectory). In other words, if no bullet out of any cartridge is going to retain enough velocity, by the time it reaches a brownie's vitals, to put out a hydraulic wave there, then I need to radically revamp my idea of bear protection.
    I mean, if that's the case, then a 540 gr. Garrett Hammerhead out of a 45-70 @ 1500 fps is more effective than a 350 gr. .416 bullet @ 2400 fps. Correct?
    FWIW, I wouldn't use the Hornady 350's as my bullet of choice for my 450. In the testing that I've done I find that the 405 gr. Kodiak's and the hardcast 405's that Buffalo Bore uses hold together and penetrate much better than the Hornady Interlock. I don't have my chrono numbers handy and I haven't shot a Brownie with either, but they sure plow right through a box of wet phone books with ease!
    The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps! (Eleanor Roosevelt, 1945)

  9. #9

    Default Velocity vs. Penetration

    I found this on another board. Good info.

    "This was initially posted on another forum by Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridges. I found it very interesting and thought provoking. The discussion of velocity's effect on penetration with the 45/70 was a big issue on the now defunct Marlin Talk Forum. I thought I would share this with the members here and I hope you all enjoy it.
    Don"

    "There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

    Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common-sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

    Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

    What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.

    Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

    Randy Garrett
    www.GarrettCartridges.com"

  10. #10
    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Very interesting. If you want to observe this effect, mix cornstarch and water to the consistancy of slime. Now hit it with the tip of one finger fast. It is like hitting a solid object. Now ease your fingertip in slowly. See what the article is talking about? Me too. Cool huh?

  11. #11

    Default Velocity

    The increase in velocity's greatest assett is it's ability to decrease the tragectory of a projectile. We don't always have our target at 25 feet as in Garrett's tests. The ballistic coeffeceint of the bullet and range at which it impacts will determine it's impacting velocity. Impacting velocity is almost never the same as muzzle velocity.

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    Default Hydraulic Shock....

    Forester,

    Thanks for posting Randy's words for us. I had forgotton about that.

    Hey, did you you turn that sight over to the 200 yard position?

    Anyway back to the Hydraulic stuff. I don't agree with everything Randy has said in that but most of it. Keep in mind he is refering to one 458 bullet of a particular shape/design. The velocity numbers don't apply across the board to every caliber and every bullet shape. But certainly would apply to that realm of "handgun velocities" under 2000 fps and with hard cast blunt nosed bullets.

    Also in regard to Hydraulic shock a very important consideration is this;

    A 9mm bullet at 1250 fps when hitting a gallon jug of water will splash water in a violent manner. Hydraulic shock! The high speed hollow point stayed in the jug, fully expanded and flattened out. (Actually on the ground) Slow that bullet to 800 fps and it just pokes a hole in the jug and lets the water out. Did not expand much and did not exit. Now move up to a 45 Colt with a 280 grain WFN hard cast bullet at 800 fps, the jug explodes at almost exactly the same way the high speed 9mm bullet does. Could this be hydraulic shock? Yes. Not necessarily the same as we would see with a rifle or even the 9mm but the water was set in motion by the bullets impact and damaged the jug considerably. The wide flat nose of the cast bullet trasferred energy to the water very well. The 9mm flattened out and did the same thing but didn't have the momentum to go anywhere after hitting the water. No 45 caliber bullets were recovered in this test.

    This same scenario happens with rifles also but at rifle velocities the bullet must be very strong to withstand impact with water.

    So as we go up in caliber we can go down in velocity and still achieve the same results. Thus the 45-70's damage at such a low velocity. Some what similar to 30-06 or 300 mag 180 grain at much higher velocity. A heavier 45-70 bullet would likely have exited and may have done similar damage if of correct design.

    So to say that "shock" occurs at X velocity would be dependant on caliber, and bullet shape and weight (momentum). When camparing velocity impact results we must stay with same bullet shape, weight and caliber and vary only velocity. Much the way is described in Randy Garrett's report.

    This is a learning experiment but when hunting, we have no control over what exactly the bullet will hit. Water, blood, muscle, bone, grass, or moose crap all alter the equation and make the results less predictable. Also timing is important. (If the heart is full of blood at the moment of impact.) A hard cast bullet is more predictable than a lightly constructed hollow point. A Trophy Bonded is more predictable than a Core Lokt, when dealing with thicker bodied animals.

    In the realm of African hunting, it has long been believed that with the big bores (45-60 cal.) the optimum penetration velocity is 2000-2150 fps. However, the 416 Rigby with it's 410 grain at 2370 fps has always been a good penetrator. It is voted most likely to exit. This is about sectional density. The same bullet (soft point) driven by the 416 Weatherby case full of powder will do more damage in the near side but will likely not exit. We must match the bullet shape and construction with the rifle's velocity. The TBBC bullets are much like a solid at "normal" velocity. The Partition is not going to handle the high velocity of the Weatherby calibers when fired into very tough guys. (cape buffalo) Bullet construction, weight, velocity and beast must be matched up well for best results.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  13. #13
    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Is there a name to accompany the preposition that we are talking about a given bullet at a given velocity and spin rate? It is, I think the first rule of any terminal ballistics debate to specify.

  14. #14

    Question Murphy

    Which would be a more effective killer? A 45 cal bullet of moderate velocities that drives thru an animal and exits taking a certain amount of energy with it or a 45 cal bullets at high velocity (hence higher energy) that stays and sheds 100% of energy inside of animal? Both premium bullets, you choose the weight.

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    Default Wasted energy...

    Maydog,

    With both bullets impacting in the same place at the exact angle, of course, identical bullets, etc.

    Where did this higher velocity bullet stop? Where will it stop? Did it stop after penetrating 2" of brown bear carcass? Or did it penetrate all the way through and stop under the hide on the far side. If 2" deep, I think we both know the answer. If all the way through I'll say the higher velocity will do more damage.

    That isn't in question here. The question is how do you know and how can you make sure the bullet will make it to the far side hide? I would prefer all my bullets stop under the hide, I'll make a necklace of them. The problem is if I start "adjusting" my bullets and loads until I get that perfect stop. On the next animal it may only be 2" or may stop just short of the vitals. We can't know this, so we use a little over kill, or at least a little ever penetration. We never know how much moose or brown bear or lion eland we will have to shoot through to get to the vitals. For these reasons an over penetrating bullet is better.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by RainGull View Post
    Is there a name to accompany the preposition that we are talking about a given bullet at a given velocity and spin rate? It is, I think the first rule of any terminal ballistics debate to specify.
    R/G,

    Que?
    ???What do you mean a name. Do you mean who is the originator? Well I am for my theories and opinions. What twist rate? Are you on the right forum/thread? My twist rate vs penetration comments were on 24hrC/F.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  17. #17

    Question OK Murphy

    Now we're getting somewhere. My recent experience was in 05, we killed four huge (1900-2300lbs) bison and used 350 Barnes. Shot at around 75-85 yds, the bullets busted 1" ribs on both sides on three animals and one on another.
    all lodged in offside hide. These were shot out of 45-70s at 2300fps+, with one shot kills. There was great penetration, but not an overly great amount of shock damage. This year, we went to 300 gr Barnes, looking for more terminal tissue damage and to check penetration. The shots were in the 85-125 yard range and shot placement was very similar as before. The kills were much quicker and shock damage was tremendous, breaking ribs also, and penetration was the same as the 350s, in fact, one exited on an angling shot taking out two ribs. The 300s are loaded to 2700fps+. As a side note, another friend shot a huge bull at 65 yds with a 338 using 220 gr Noslers, glanced off a rib and exited offside flank. Couldn't get in a finisher because of all the buff surrounding him...took a long time to die, sad. So, in your opinion, would you still opt for the heavier bullet given these senarios?

  18. #18

    Default Certainly

    If you shot a 350 grn. projectile at a buffalo at 85 yards and it didn't get complete penatration, your bullet was designed for a different animal. A 350 grn. bullet leaving the muzzle at 2400 fps has no excuse for not completely penatrating a bison at 85 yds, except bullet failure.

  19. #19
    Member RainGull's Avatar
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    Default

    It sounds to me like the penetration was fine, just that he did not get the hydrostatic effect he was looking for.

    Murphy, never mind.

  20. #20

    Default

    ok, that's the kind of answer I was initially looking for- an example of velocity-related shock-damage on thick-skinned game (bison). I imagine that brown bear would be similar- high velocity pulpifies tissue.
    However, what Murphy said makes a lot of sense- the bigger the bore, the less velocity is needed to produce x amount of hydraulic shock: If you swipe a spoon through the water as fast as you can, you'll produce a hydraulic wave of a given size. If you try to match that wave using a frisbee, you won't have to push it very fast. The bigger caliber will displace more liquid/soft-tissue.
    Also, I do not dispute the fact that Garrett hammerheads penetrate best @ 1300-1600 fps. If you want to break down shoulders, it sounds like an awesome option. But if you want to put out a hydraulic effect, I bet a barnes @ 2700+ fps is pretty effective.

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