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Thread: How can the PU Salmon Permit (Dipnet Harvest permit/report postcard) be improved?

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    Default How can the PU Salmon Permit (Dipnet Harvest permit/report postcard) be improved?

    I've scanned my real harvest permit from this year; all filled out. I've blotched out the parts that I don't want to share publicly.

    It shows 12 days dipping activity on a card that allows recording of only 5 recordings of dipnetting activity. It has entries for multiple fish recorded separately on some of those days, so there are like 17 times that fish were recorded on this card.

    Obviously this is not clear reporting. It is accurate though; I can read it, and if questioned I could show every recording as per current law.

    As I interpret the law, I must record my fish before I remove them from where I caught them, and I interpret that is being in one place on the sand/beach/riverside; though I do not count moving in or back solely to accomodate the tide as "moving" - and maybe I'm in error on that.

    I know others count them as being moved when the go to remove them from the river entirely. But I've seen warnings given by F&G guys to people that have this interpretation, so I choose the more narrow interpretation.

    What a mess! Can we challenge F&G to come up with something better? Do they have any wish to come up with something better?

    P.S. Since I filled my allotted space on this site earlier today to post a screen shot that illustrates a forum bug to the management, I have no room to post my dipnet harvest card here. So I'm now posting it on another site, which takes longer...



    TO THE LOCAL MANAGEMENT: BRIAN, MIKE S., ETC.: Can I please have just a piddlin more space allotted to me? Less than 3 MB is puny. C'mon guys, space on servers is cheap these days. Please?

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    Moderator kingfisherktn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    TO THE LOCAL MANAGEMENT: BRIAN, MIKE S., ETC.: Can I please have just a piddlin more space allotted to me? Less than 3 MB is puny. C'mon guys, space on servers is cheap these days. Please?

    You'd kick if you were hung with a new rope.

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Yes, it can be greatly improved. I'd say the easiest improvement would be to double the size of the card with a crease in the center where you fold it in half to mail it (like most product warantee registration cards). That should increase the line count from 5 dates up to at least 20-25 dates. The section where you put your name, family members, limits, etc. can be moved to the back of the card, leaving the entire center section for nothing but fishing data.

    Who do we need to call?
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    Default whop will know

    whop knows everyone it seems; I bet he would know a good starting point.

    Another possible improvement is to specify to use tick marks for all fish, then add up the tick marks at the end of each day into a number you'd write there. That would most easily allow multiple entries per day and yet summarize it more easily for those who would process the results.

    Another might be to create the card from something that is waterproof yet can be written on with ball point pen.

    Another might be to allow the user to go to two cards, three cards, etc... if they needed more room; each card would have a little section at the end indicating if the record was continued on a followon card.

    What else?

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    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Put your ideas down on one list and I will get it to the guy who makes those decisions. The boys at fish and game just "LOVE" hearing from me, LOL but I can reach out and get er done if they like the changes.
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    The space for "other household members" names needs to be bigger. I'm pretty happy with it otherwise.

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    Tell the decision-makers at AkDF&G that we've formed a union, hired loibbyists, and intend to wreak havoc this coming November if they don't give in to our demands. The first of which is that each dip-net harvest card be made of thin stainless steel, and the State supplies an economical, portable, bullet-proof (both literally and figuratively) battery-powered engraving tool with which to fill it out.. With a new engraving tool every three consecutive years a dip-netter can prove they filed a card/slab/piece of stainless steel reflecting their catch(es). (Even if just for the purpose of staying up with technology in re. to engraving implements).

    My guess; there's grant money available for this, whether federal or State. Call it stimulus money for the personal use fisheries, and get some Whitehouse and State honchos to endorse it. It should turn into some good PR for them right off the bat, exemplifying their willingness to reach out to -all- sectors of the public, no matter how obscure and all...It'll make the average angler feel like Wall Streeters and banks weren't the -only- winners in the bail-outs. And we'd have our engravers to prove it!!

    Heck, we could start a trend, and before you know it, the aboriginal groups on the Columbia River might be filing their fisheries law suits on engraved stainless steel as well.

    This could be BIG. HUGE. Really HUGE.
    -----------
    But more seriously, if they'd let a dip-netter keep a photo-copy of their permit in their possession at the point of fishing, then have them fill out the real one at their vehicle before departure from the area, then my permit wouldn't look like it survived the Sharon Tate/Charles Manson/Squeaky Fromm scene in 'Helter Skelter.' (Not that there might not be grant money of stimulus origins associated with some sort of subsistence/personal use stuff.... Just that I hate writing grants or doing business with the govvy in general...)

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    Allow online reporting. Enter the number from your permit and then enter all the data you have. Simple, fast and would save F&G the hassle of entering all those permits into a computer by hand.
    Just a bitter Alaskan clinging to his guns and religion.....

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    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Hey ruffle, I would tell them all those things but I'm sure they would call me on the BS. They know me by now and saying all you listed would just make them laugh all the harder. Sorry to say!!!
    Bilder, you are correct, why can't we report online? Another question for the boys in the right place!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyMan View Post
    Another possible improvement is to specify to use tick marks for all fish...
    That's already in the regs. The example card the state publishes to show you how to fill it out uses hash marks.


    Another might be to create the card from something that is waterproof yet can be written on with ball point pen.
    The card is printed on Rite-In-The-Rain paper. It already is waterproof. The best thing to use to write on it is a "Space Pen" (also sold by Rite-In-The-Rain).


    Another might be to allow the user to go to two cards, three cards, etc...
    If the card is twice the size and folded in half, like I suggested in my previous post, you won't have to deal with multiple cards as you'll be starting with the equivalent of about 3 cards worth of space.

    Personally, I've never had an issue with the card as it is. I've never had the need to fish 5 separate days, but our house of 2 has a lower need than what the state says we can take, so I never try to fill the whole quota anyway. This year started with some very fortunate sport fishing success so the need for dipping was further reduced. However, I've always thought they could have used a larger space for documenting the catch either by compacting the info at the top of the card or making the card itself larger.
    Winter is Coming...

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  11. #11

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    While we're at it, I want to see the daily totals for the Copper, Kenai, Kasilof, Fish Creek, AND Beluga River fisheries posted online. With color charts, no less.

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    Oh well.. Bluffing works some of the time, whop. It's only humiliating when they actually call you on it..

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    Member thewhop2000's Avatar
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    Ruffle, making me laugh too hard, too long!!!
    If a dipnetter dips a fish and there is no one around to see/hear it, Did he really dip?

  14. #14

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    The current form is frustrating for sure. They don't make it EASY to comply with the rules as far as logging your fish before leaving the fishing site of concealing them from view. I liked last year's card better when it had the grid instead of the bubbles so you could enter tick marks to keep your fish tally current. I talked with ADF&G about the form and he said the purpose of moving towards the fill-in bubbles is so they can be electronically scanned at some point in the unknown future. The biologist I talked to said they probably wouldn't make the form bigger. The current paper does have a coating to help with weather resistance. I would like to see changes to make it easier for people to comply. Whatever changes take place, it has to be enforceable. Online reporting without anything being logged before leaving the river isn't enforceable. It might work for honest people, but as we all know the logging and tail-cutting rules are made for the dishonest. Familyman, you've got the right idea, mark that permit up all over the place, outside the lines if need be, to show compliance.

    BTW, make sure you are logging the fish and cutting the tails before you move from one spot to another on the river (i.e. different fishing site), conceal the fish from view (coolers, opaque bags), or take a break back at camp for a while -- even if you're not done fishing for the day. If someone is ferrying fish to a location away from the fishing site (defined as "where the fish is removed from the water") and the fish aren't theirs, they need to have a transfer of possession form (available in the reg. book) and again, they need to be logged. If you're traveling back to town in a separate vehicle from your fish, the person transporting your fish needs to have a transfer of possession form b/c if they get pulled over by the Troopers and they have more than their limit of fish and not enough people or permits to cover them, bad things can happen. The price per pound for salmon increases dramatically when you have to pay a fine. Don't forget to check for emergency orders. Trust me, it sucks to do everything right only to find out that the river is closed temporarily. :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by akav8r View Post
    Familyman, you've got the right idea, mark that permit up all over the place, outside the lines if need be, to show compliance.
    Yeah, for me its definitely a "following the law" thing, but its also a bit of a rebel thing. Every fish I caught is there and if need be I can prove it anytime, but good luck on them being able to read it; it just ain't going to happen. That's what started my concern for a new form.

    I didn't have as much trouble in years past because I'd gone at the right time and happened quickly. This year I went way too early and my fish came in slower, thus giving me the reporting challenge.

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