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Thread: 416 Dakota short

  1. #1

    Default 416 Dakota short

    Anybody ever neck a 2.5" Dakota case up to 416? Dakota only loads 416 in the full length Jeffery case, but I don't know why they wouldn't use thier standard length version.
    How do you think it would compare with the other 416s? How fast do you think it would push a 350 gr. TSX?

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    Default 416 Dakota Short...

    Go_North,

    A caliber near and dear to my heart!

    I had to make one of my own on a 76 action. I have loading data and yes it is a great one.

    I tried to get Dakota to make a 416 short, or No. 2 as they called it and Don Allen was willing to do it and even made a prototype. I believe he took it to Africa. After his passing the idea went away and they forgot about it. I got a good buy on one of their M76 actions at a gun show and made one. A friend of mine had montana make an action that would work and he also had one made. It is a 30-06 action with the short mag follower and a .545" cut bolt head. At the time I made the 416 they didn't have the 404, so I necked up 375 brass and all worked very well.

    The 404 is on the short case but the 416 is the one and only on the full length Jeffery case. I like all the short case calibers.

    The 2.5" Jeffery case is capable of duplicating the 416 Remington mag ballistics at lower pressure. 400 grains at 2450 and 350's at approaching 2600 fps. The 404 will do the same thing but of course the 416 has many more bullets available. Good idea you have there.

    Murphy
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default

    Sounds like a twin for the .416 AR devised by folks over at this forum:
    http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve?s=518103

    Bascially they take 300 RUM brass, shorten it and neck it down for the caliber they want. I think they have made it into 416, 458, and 475.
    Check out the bigbore forum over there for more info. I know the 458 AR will perform better than the 458 Lott and with a shorter case.
    Tennessee

  4. #4

    Default

    So Murphy,
    How did the 416 DS recoil compare with the other Dakotas (330, 375)?
    Which would you rather have in case of a brownie charge- 375 Dak sending 270 gr. TSX @ over 2900, or 416 Dak Sh. sending 350 gr. TSX @ 2600? Do you think the hydraulic shock of the faster bullet would make up the difference?
    Lets say I was going to buy a CZ Safari for the sole purpose of building a 416 Dak Sh.- What would be the easiest caliber to make the conversion from- Rigby?
    I'm really curious about this one. Thanks!

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    Default

    Go_North,

    That's a good question and a common division. Which is better lighter faster or bigger slower.

    The answer isn't a simple one, as you might guess.


    Higher velocity is hard on bullets and heavy tough critters are hard on bullets, we don't need both. (please note: there is no such thing as a super bullet or magic bullet or an indestructable bullet, they all can fail)

    Hydraulic shock. Does it exist? yes. Can we depend on it to always produce the desired effect when we need it? No. Is there an advantage (greater killing effect) from higher impact velocity? Yes, but there are also some very real disadvantages also. The issue is not so much which is more effective killer, it is which one is the most reliable killer.

    The choice between the two is an easy one. 416/350@2400 (would be my velocity) I would not want impact velocity to ever be above 2400 for ANY bullet for the big, tough beasts.

    The performance of a particular bullet at a certain velocity on one anmal doesn't guarantee the same performance on a different animal.

    To your first question, here is a rule: Don't ask me about recoil. I used to teach in my classes that recoil only exists in the mind of the shooter.

    If a shooters mind is on the recoil, that's where it will stay. Proper technique, well designed stocks, good recoil pads (on the rifle) is all that is necessary. I shot 150 rounds this past week end. The calibers ranged from 338 WSM, 375 WSM, 416 Taylor, and 404 Dakota. I can't even say which was which. Just load and shoot. I shoot more big bore (338 and over) than any ten people I know. I don't know anything about recoil. I don't care about recoil. I don't even talk about recoil.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  6. #6

    Default

    So Murphy, you're telling me that if the only gun you had for bear protection was a 30-06, and you were using either 180 gr. A-frames or 180 gr. TSX's, you'd load them down to 2400 fps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    So Murphy, you're telling me that if the only gun you had for bear protection was a 30-06, and you were using either 180 gr. A-frames or 180 gr. TSX's, you'd load them down to 2400 fps?
    Yes.

    If I only had a 30-06 I would load 200 A-frames or 220 Kodiaks at 2400 fps.

    If I only had a 30-06 and 180 grain A-frames, I would load to about 2400 fps and go hunting.

    If I had only a 30-06 and 180 grain TSX's, since I'm not familiar with the performance of that bullet, I would go fishing.

    Expansion of any bullet is based on velocity. More velocity=more expansion.

    Penetrations is based on expansion. More expansion=Less penetration.

    I'd rather have a 30-35 caliber hole all the way through than a 40-60 caliber hole half way through.

    Of course this is a hypothetical situation so it's just for the sake of the discussion, for what that's worth, but in reality the 30-06 isn't such a bad bear gun and with heavy bullets can be effective. It's ability to handle long heavy bullets is where it out performs the 308. The 220 grain plain jane round in factory ammo is loaded to about 2400 fps. It is a soft point expanding, non premium bullet. At this velocity it works very well. The Swift or trophy bonded are very tough and can withstand greater impact stresses.


    I'm not a user of the new Barnes TSX, not that I doubt that it is a good bullet, I just don't think it is the "magic" bullet that many people think. The claims that it expands more and penetrates deeper yet weighs less hype defies the laws of physics so I'm skeptical about the rest. I want 100% predictability and dependability in a bullet. Of course we can't have that but closer is better. One might see what seems like good performance from any bullet but without comparing to see how other bullets perform.

    I have seen some awesome one shot kills with the high velociity calibers (Ultra's, Wby's, etc.) with the Barnes X's and TSX'S. I have also seen some total failures. My best shot ever on any animal was at a running zebra stallion that was carrying three TSX's from a 340 WBY. None of them ever opened up at all, no expansion. All three were still pointed and one was bent in a curve like a horse or a ...zebra shoe. This was with a 416 Remington and 350 grain Swift A-frames. The range was about 350 yds and I aimed for his ears. That bullet entered the ribs on the left med section and exited the neck on the right side. The old boy hit the dust on his chin.

    I'm sure this wasn't meant to be a treatise on bullet performance but my opinions are mine and are based on my experiences over about four decades of hunting and shooting. Your mileage may vary. I have also hunted many different animals with many different calibers and many different bullets. It's hard to give up what works.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    So Murphy,
    How did the 416 DS recoil compare with the other Dakotas (330, 375)?
    Which would you rather have in case of a brownie charge- 375 Dak sending 270 gr. TSX @ over 2900, or 416 Dak Sh. sending 350 gr. TSX @ 2600? Do you think the hydraulic shock of the faster bullet would make up the difference?
    Lets say I was going to buy a CZ Safari for the sole purpose of building a 416 Dak Sh.- What would be the easiest caliber to make the conversion from- Rigby?
    I'm really curious about this one. Thanks!
    I didn't give you an answer about the action. Not the Rigby action. It is too long and the bolt face is too big. the Dakota is .545" bolt head and the Rigby is 2.9" long and .590" bolt face. It can be made from a 338 /458 Mag. Needs a different follower and the bolt head opened up to .545" from .532". You'll also want an extended magazine (drop box) to hold three rounds.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  9. #9

    Default Murphy

    I'm not fimiliar with the 416 wsm or Dakota since it's a relatively new wildcat. Are it's ballistics simular to the 416 Taylor. Do barnes bullets being of monolithic construstion(thus longer for weight) require being seated deeper in the case and loss of powder capacity in these short action magnums?

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    Default Wildcats...

    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    I'm not fimiliar with the 416 wsm or Dakota since it's a relatively new wildcat. Are it's ballistics simular to the 416 Taylor. Do barnes bullets being of monolithic construstion(thus longer for weight) require being seated deeper in the case and loss of powder capacity in these short action magnums?
    I have here in my hands four loaded cartridges. A 416 on the WSM case loaded with a 350 grain A-frame and another with a 400 grain Sledge hammer solid. (This is a very thick, 1/8" jacket with a hardened lead core, the mono's will be a little longer.) The OAL of the 350 grain Swift is 2.930" and the solid is 2.900". Both of these fit the magazine of my 338 and 375 WSM (I don't have the 416WSM here now) The solid is 1.220" long and is seated to the base of the neck.

    The 404 Dakota is loaded with a 400 grain Dead Tough bullet (round nose). It's OAL is 3.200". The same case necked down to 416 (416 Dakota short) is loaded with a A-frame 400 grain and OAL is 3.300". There is also a .423" (404) A-frame that seats to 3.300" in the 404 Dakota case.

    Water capacity to the top and ballistics:

    416 WSM 87 grs. 350 grains @2400 fps.
    416 Taylor 89 grs. 350 grains @2400 fps
    416 Rem. 104 grs. 400 grains @2400 fps
    416 Dak. 104 grs. 400 grains @2400 fps (This is the 2.5" 404 case)
    404 Dak. 105 grs. 400 grains @2450 fps

    These ballistics are accepted norms for the standard calibers and the wildcats are same pressure. I love the Dakota cases and the WSM in larger calibers are impressive.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  11. #11

    Default Dakota Actions

    Murphy: SO, is the magazine of the Dakota rifle longer than a standard short action? You said the rounds you load are from 2.900-2.930 the standard OAL for a short action is around 2.810. This gives the Dakota about an extra 1/8 " of cartridge length.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    Murphy: SO, is the magazine of the Dakota rifle longer than a standard short action? You said the rounds you load are from 2.900-2.930 the standard OAL for a short action is around 2.810. This gives the Dakota about an extra 1/8 " of cartridge length.
    B01,

    I didn't mention, but the WSM based calibers are made on a Montana Rifleman action and the magazine box is 3.00". This is their standard Short mag action. It fits and feed very well. The idea of the WSM calibers fitting in a "308" length action is not really true. Most companies made a special length action for them.

    The Dakotas are in Dakota actions which have magazine boxes to accept up to 3.5" OAL. This is their "Standard" length action designed for the 30-06 family of cartridges, and of course the short (2.5") Dakota calibers. Max SAAMI length for the 30-06 is 3.340" and for the Dakota short is 3.400".
    I hope this clear things up a bit.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  13. #13

    Thumbs up Thanks

    That's the part I didn't understand, it's actually a medium length action. Got it now though. I've got a commercial M-98 in 416 Taylor that'll have to do right now. But thanks for the info on the new caliber.

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    Default 416

    Murphy and others.
    I'm sort of interested in this too. Before the introduction of the 375 Ruger, I thought about making something using the Dakota short brass, but found that it takes a special magazine to hold three down.

    But, recently I purchased an interesting Mauser magazine assembly that is made for the magnum cartridges, with a follower to match. Just for the heck of it, I tried some 375 Dakota brass in it, and found that it fits - with three down under the closed bolt. With a little rail and ramp work I think it will feed properly.

    Anyway, now everything has changed with the 375 Ruger. I'm sure it will catch on, and become widely popular. In your opinion, is there any reason now to make a rifle using Dakota brass instead of just necking the 375 Ruger brass up to 416?

    This magazine I have will aparantly work with either, but the 375 Ruger will be easier to make work.

    Thanks,

    KB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabluewy View Post
    Murphy and others.
    I'm sort of interested in this too. Before the introduction of the 375 Ruger, I thought about making something using the Dakota short brass, but found that it takes a special magazine to hold three down.

    But, recently I purchased an interesting Mauser magazine assembly that is made for the magnum cartridges, with a follower to match. Just for the heck of it, I tried some 375 Dakota brass in it, and found that it fits - with three down under the closed bolt. With a little rail and ramp work I think it will feed properly.

    Anyway, now everything has changed with the 375 Ruger. I'm sure it will catch on, and become widely popular. In your opinion, is there any reason now to make a rifle using Dakota brass instead of just necking the 375 Ruger brass up to 416?

    This magazine I have will aparantly work with either, but the 375 Ruger will be easier to make work.

    Thanks,

    KB

    K/B,

    I have some Hornady 375 Ruger brass and I'm not impressed. When I neck it up to 416 it has such a short neck that I think it will never hold. The neck is even short for the 375 bullet. Also it doesn't seem to be of the best quality.

    The 404 jeffery case, on which the Dakota series is based, is thicker and stronger than any other brass by design, than any except for the WSM's which is about the same in body and webb thickness. The 2.5" Dakota brass is the best of all of the new calibers. The Dakotas are .545" in diameter and the Ultra/WSM's are .550", so what ever holds three of them will hold three Dakotas.

    You're right, I'm sure, about the 375 Ruger cartridge. It will be very popular and with all the gunwriters bragging on it, before the horse, it will be the greatest thing since smokeless powder. In that case, of course, everybody who makes brass will be making 375 Ruger. I expect Ruger to bring out a 338 and later a 300 on this case but nothing bigger than the 375. We'll wait and see.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default Dakota

    Yes, Murphy. When I looked closely at the picture of the 375 Ruger, my thought was that the neck looked short, kinda like the neck of the 300 WM - stunted.

    So, I read something about the Dakota company being in financial trouble, but I just looked on their site and see brass is listed for sale. I don't know if it is actually available or not. I see Midway still shows it, backordered but available.

    Do you think this stuff will continue to be available?

    Of course a guy could stock up with some brass.

    Let's say a guy was willing to go ahead and commit to a 375 Dakota. Where can dies be purchased, and who has a reamer? Do you?

    KB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabluewy View Post
    Yes, Murphy. When I looked closely at the picture of the 375 Ruger, my thought was that the neck looked short, kinda like the neck of the 300 WM - stunted.

    So, I read something about the Dakota company being in financial trouble, but I just looked on their site and see brass is listed for sale. I don't know if it is actually available or not. I see Midway still shows it, backordered but available.

    Do you think this stuff will continue to be available?

    Of course a guy could stock up with some brass.

    Let's say a guy was willing to go ahead and commit to a 375 Dakota. Where can dies be purchased, and who has a reamer? Do you?

    KB
    K/B,

    Yes Dakota is in chapter 11. I don't expect them to go under but even if they do Jamison in Sturgis, is the maker of their brass and is tooled for it so will likely continue to sell. It will always be more expensve than normal brass.

    No I don't have a reamer but Dave Manson will make all Dakota calibers on special order, 8 weeks and $195. I may buy a reamer from him in the 416 2.5" though. Redding makes dies from fired cases, $120. I've done this quite a bit. Graf & Son has brass now.

    Here's a link to Manson reamers.

    http://www.mansonreamers.com/PriceList.htm
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Default 416 Short

    Guys, I just stumbled onto the forum by accident while looking for some OAL numbers for the full size 416 dakota. I'm not from Alaska and I've never been, but I'm interested in this thread.

    Isn't this the same idea as the 416 Howell cartridge from Ken Howell years back?

    It seems like it was a 404 Jeffrey case trimmed to 2.5" and loaded with 350 or 400 grainers for an OAL of around 3.33".

    A quick look at ammoguide.com shows me that it puts a 350 out at 2600 and a 400 out at 2450 with a full case of benchmark (not compressed).

    Iv'e been thinking for a while of building a standard length action in 416 Taylor (which CAN achieve 2400fps from a 400gn bullet so I hear), but this Howell or Dakota Short idea sounds even better since you won't need a belt.

    The brass and dies may be a little harder to get, though. The 416 Taylor uses 375 H&H or 458 WINMAG brass.

    - John-Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheepshooter View Post
    Guys, I just stumbled onto the forum by accident while looking for some OAL numbers for the full size 416 dakota. I'm not from Alaska and I've never been, but I'm interested in this thread.

    Isn't this the same idea as the 416 Howell cartridge from Ken Howell years back?

    It seems like it was a 404 Jeffrey case trimmed to 2.5" and loaded with 350 or 400 grainers for an OAL of around 3.33".

    A quick look at ammoguide.com shows me that it puts a 350 out at 2600 and a 400 out at 2450 with a full case of benchmark (not compressed).

    Iv'e been thinking for a while of building a standard length action in 416 Taylor (which CAN achieve 2400fps from a 400gn bullet so I hear), but this Howell or Dakota Short idea sounds even better since you won't need a belt.

    The brass and dies may be a little harder to get, though. The 416 Taylor uses 375 H&H or 458 WINMAG brass.

    - John-Paul
    J-P,

    Yes you're right Ken Howell did this long ago, in fact it is the cover cartridge on his big blue book of custom cartridges. A 2.5" 416, on the jeffery case.

    This 416 Dakota short is essentially their 375 necked up or the 404 Dakota necked down with some minor changes. I have been working on this project for a long time and am about to get it finilized. It will be called something catchy. Headstamped brass will be made by Jamison. The reamer is Manson, the dies are Redding and the brass will all carry the name and it won't be Dakota. I thought I had Don Allen talked into making this 416 Dakota #2, as he would call it, but after his passing, the idea went away.

    This would be the best of the best. More capacity than the Taylor and equal to the Remington with a more efficient design and no belt. Much more compact than the Rigby with the same world famous ballistics of 400 grain at 2400 + fps. Everything about he design is better than anything before it.

    I will have a full description of the cartridge and the rifle in the days to come. Brass will be available in quantity and I will market the loaded ammunition. There are yet some details to render out but it is coming.

    Send me a PM if you want more info.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  20. #20
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    Doesnt the 404 Jeffery case have the same base size as the Remington Ultramag line of cartridges?
    Tennessee

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