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Thread: 00Buck or Slugs, Range Results, Interesting?

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default 00Buck or Slugs, Range Results, Interesting?

    %%%

    Pulled out the Rem 870 12ga (3" magnum) at the Kodiak range the other day for FUN?? Not wanting to enter into the 230 replies on the Brown Bear and Slugs scientific Mania, I thought you folks might be interested in some Paper Results,

    I had commented on results at the range with 00Buck that had me reconsidering my prior choice of loading my Bear Protection Shotgun with an order of 3 Slugs followed by 2 rounds of 00Buck. My idea was that out of 5 round capacity, using first Slugs for the longer range accuracy for the first moments of realization that a Bad Charge was happening, then the last two being 00 Buck as a "Wall of Lead" to stop the momentum of a 1000lb+ of animal still coming at 35 mph even if "technically dead" but still headed for the numbers on my chest.

    So here, for perspective on range to target, (camera is standing about two yards behind the muzzle here), and that piece of plywood (looks white leaning on a tractor tire out there) is at 25 yards. The Chrony set up in front is at 4-5 yds.



    So, "If a Bear was head down, launching into a full run at you at 25 yds, would you still be waiting?" If not, for those considering a full load of 00 Buck, you might want to consider this result of 25 yards BenchRested 00Buck,



    If you look close you can find all 15 pellets of Buck shot but several are just outside the target, a 12in square, and several more are right on the edge. How many pellets does it take to kill, or more importantly STOP a charging Bear? Good question but the pictures do tell a story of some legitimacy. I should add these are out of a 20" barrel, Smooth Bore, Bead Sight.

    So here is 25yards results from two sets of Slugs, numbers 1-3 are Rapid Fire, as fast as I could jack 'em in and fire, and 4-6 are Benchrested,(approx 12 seconds to fire) Not too bad I thought, Ouch tho



    Did I mention yet, how much that 3"Magnum wails on ya? I'm not really what you would call lightweight, 195 lbs. Heavy in shoulders from years of pushing Crabpots and Hoisting Halibut Commercially BUT that gun is a Punisher, of course you wouldn't feel any of that in the clutch of the charge response but it may factor in an you ability to fire well?

    And here is "Getting Closer" 10yards out 1 round of 00Buck Bench rested,(there is one slug hole on the right side there) and you can see all 15 pellets on target, tho numbers 1 and 2 are right up on the top edge. Maybe Better, but ten yards is getting pretty close.



    More REALLY INTERESTING PHOTOS COMING, next
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    %%%

    So, remember the Full On Charge Scenario, as the Bear reaches 7 yards, (just behind that Chronometer set up in first picture, you might take a look at that again......)
    His head is down and he is running, I imagine shoulders moving, head up and down, and you let loose some 00 Buck..... this is 1 round, and not too bad for last second wall of concentrated lead.



    and here's a series of 2 Slugs followed by 1 round of 00 Buck in Rapid Fire mode at 7 yards, Heck that's not too bad, eh? Now what was that statistic on how many feet per second they cover at 35 mph????? Maybe I don't want to know?

    There are some clusters of 00 Buck pellets so couldn't account for all 30 but you can see the two slugs marked in there,


    Now here's something I thought you folks might appreciate, I learned quite a bit finding this Brown Bear Skull up the hill from Larsen Bay on Kodiak back in '78. (Yeah it's been around a while and survived a garage fire, so a bit rough) but it is approx 24" skull and maybe average for what you might find Sprinting at you Full Bore, head up, looking at your eyes. Check out the width of the essential brain cavity and compare to all the area on those Wide Heads that would apparently be either eyes, ears or nose, not kill shots, but maybe "Really Irritating" areas to damage? Sitting on a background of the 7 yard 00 Buck target results,



    and notice the thickness of the skull protecting this brain cavity, (if you could feel this you would be stunned by how heavy it is there)
    as well as the natural slope of that area if this Bear is running with his head up looking at you? I guess the idea is "Don't shoot at the head!!" I'll leave the rest to you guys,



    So my conclusion, maybe the last two being 00 Buck is not such a bad idea, that concentration for the last few yards MIGHT be the impact I was looking for, but you gotta respect those slugs, those holes look BAD and the accuracy even in rapid fire at all ranges, not so bad. Considering Wyo2Ak's recent encounter, Black Bear at 8 yards, maybe he would have liked to have all 00 Buck in there, but I think for Coastal Browns, maybe 3 slugs followed by 2 00 Buck is a pretty good load in a pump action shotgun, maybe all 5 Slugs is Best? As for those thinking a scoped high power rifle for a 25 yard charge, all I can say is "you better get out there practicing that, they run pretty good and racking that bolt while looking thru a scope....... Your call
    Hope that is not only interesting but good info for you folks, It's Bears on the River time of year, Be Prepared, so you can be confident enough to let them retreat, or retreat yourself.
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Member kodiakrain's Avatar
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    Default Ahhh, can't see 'em all?

    Whoops, minor correction to post #1, you cannot see all fifteen 00 Buck pellets on that 25 yard shot because a few were so far outside the paper I couldn't be sure where they landed on the plywood backing, maybe three inches outside the paper for three of 'em,

    Also later there should only be 15 holes not 30 on the 2 Slugs and 1 00Buck target,
    sorry, hard to get it all right in twenty minutes

    Fun pics to look at tho anyway, eh? let the debate "Stay Cool"
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Nice testing,what was the buck penetration on the plywood at 7yds.Like I've said if you hit the target with buck the slug will also hit and usually better and with lots more fpe
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Me and my son tested Slugs and my 45-70 for penetration on a 1/4" plate of steel at about 15 yards. Both passed clean thru like it was butter. I imagine if a bear was charging, even a shoulder shot or any head shot would continue on thru and possibly pass thru it. I was amazed they penetrated so well.

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    That pattern with OO is terrible. My Mosberg 590A1 was tight at 30 yards. Made a group about 12" across. At 15 yards it was double-fist sized.

    Using slugs I was able to get five rounds of 3" Buckhammer's into a single group at 30 yards.

    You may want to send your barrel to this guy: http://www.turkeyshoot.net/GBG.htm and have him massage it. He also did a 36" goose barrel for me that brings them down at 40 yards. The pattern has to be seen to be believed. He knows what he is doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitroman View Post
    That pattern with OO is terrible. My Mosberg 590A1 was tight at 30 yards. Made a group about 12" across. At 15 yards it was double-fist sized.
    Nitro's results are much more in tune with my own, though I long ago gave up on OO as more pellets are preferable, IME, to a slightly larger pellet size.
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    interesting kodiak thanks. I have used the 00 up close on 1 grizzly. It works.

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    Thanks for the replies guys,
    as for the penetration, I only had plywood backing so didn't really test for that, I'm also interested in something like that, any ideas, like firing into stack of phone books for example?

    As to the Barrel and poor spread of Buckshot at 25 yds, all I can say is that it couldn't be "shot out" or worked over in a negative way except for the fact that I bought that gun in '88 and that is the barrel that I've always had on there, it's been well cared for, not corroded or banged around, not a lot of shooting over the years, but a fair bit of carrying in the woods and storage in environments like remote cabins over the years.

    Interesting that you guys have much better results from your shotguns, are you talking about the same length 20" and smooth bore?
    I've been thinking of getting a new rifle sight Deer Barrel for this gun as I don't like that bead sight much, tho not so bad for Slug results in my opinion for Rapid Fire shooting. I've read and heard that for Buckshot, I need to stay smooth bore (?) and that is part of the reason for this testing, maybe get a rifled barrel and stick with slugs in the future?
    I would emphasize that I am not what you would call a High End shooter with Shotguns but more like an average guy with this gun. But also as mentioned, well able to handle the incredible punch of that gun. This is probably debatable as you look at the accuracy of the Rapid Fire Slugs the third round looks like it shows some flinching reaction. I know that is one heckuva a gun to shoot that much at the range and the toughest I own for bearing down and ignoring the kick factor.

    My point was that as an average Shotgun shooter, probably more practiced at potential Bear Charge response than the average guy talking on the web about whipping up a shotgun to repel a Charging Bear.(assuming that some on a Shooting Forum are well above average, but that a lot of readers on the "Internet Discussions" are maybe not as practised as they could be for this type situation)

    The goal of the thread was to remind the Average Guy, that there is A LOT to pulling off Rapid Fire Accuracy with a gun of the size required to knock down Bear on a Run. Also that if you haven't practiced much lately, it would be well worth getting back out there to stay on top of your plan.

    Again, any advice to this testing results very welcome.

    And also, the Main Idea Should Be, ( considering that I have spent as much or more time in Bear Woods than the average guy by far, have Never been charged beyond an easily discernable Bluff, if there is such a thing as easy to discern) and have never had to shoot at a Bear yet as a result of preparedness and confidence and Loads of Grace. Out of quite a few occurences of Bear in close quarters I don't believe most situations should require pulling the trigger.

    Still gotta be ready and know how your chosen gun will perform before you do.
    Ten Hours in that little raft off the AK peninsula, blowin' NW 60, in November.... "the Power of Life and Death is in the Tongue," and Yes, God is Good !

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    Nice work Al, With shotguns choke size is very important.

    Steve

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    I've never thought that 00 buck, or any buckshot was useful for bear protection. My theory is this: Would I purposely shoot a Brown bear with a blackpowder 36 cal revolver? Answer.... NO. Then why would I shoot him with buckshot. Slugs, on the other hand, seem VERY effective. My shotgun, if I carry one, is loaded with slugs all the way, as I feel penetration is important, and buckshot doesn't penetrate well. Also, BLM, F&W,and other "outdoor" wildlife folks train with, and carry slugs. And they have FAR more experience at this than I do. Ask your local F&W bear biologist what he recommends. SLUGS.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    Ask your local F&W bio how many bears he has had to shoot probably 0 not the first place Id go for advice on bear protection. One of AK old time brown bear guides like ED stevenson or Phil Shoemaker now theres a thought!

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    I've known Phil for years, and I rather doubt he would tell you to carry buckshot. But you can ask him next time you see him.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind."

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    If you get a rifled barrel you need to shoot Sabot type slugs. Do not shoot rifle slugs through a rifled barrel.

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    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    Some rifled slugs work well in both and some don't. You get little return on money shooting sabot type slugs in smooth bores. Buck has little energy per pellet and what makes no sense is the a slug would always be in the center of any buck group you get so why not use the best to start. In a couple of the test pics it looks like the wad did more than many of the pellets
    Now left only to be a turd in the forrest and the circle will be complete.Use me as I have used you

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    Quote Originally Posted by kodiakrain View Post
    Interesting that you guys have much better results from your shotguns, are you talking about the same length 20" and smooth bore?
    I've been thinking of getting a new rifle sight Deer Barrel for this gun as I don't like that bead sight much, tho not so bad for Slug results in my opinion for Rapid Fire shooting. I've read and heard that for Buckshot, I need to stay smooth bore (?) and that is part of the reason for this testing, maybe get a rifled barrel and stick with slugs in the future?
    My Mossberg has the 20" heavy-barrel with factory rifle sights. It was cylinder until I had the barrel threaded for chokes and use an improved cylinder for the slugs based on what Howard told me.
    I think you'd have a big hole in the target if your were to buy the Mossberg rifle sight set and have them installed. Shooting across a bead with slugs is challenging.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

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    I will probably bump into Phil again at SCI this winter. Buck is useful for bears only in limited circumstances like when they are almost on top of you. Ed S has carried a shotgun for bear more than anyone I know, he uses slugs. This argument is old as the hills and I guess we are all products of our experiences. Like I said I used buck one time on a wounded grizzly, she was in some real thick stuff and I knew she would be waiting and she was. You can say what you want about penetration all I know is it killed her stone dead. Worst part was the taxi couldnt fix the damage to the hide. range was less than 10 yards, gun was a winny defender.

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    to improve your accuracy you need a rear sight, even for close range work. In the few "how to kill a bear" gun safety classes I have had to take for work over the years the folks with the front bead only sights on their shotguns did poorly. Me with a standard 870 rifle sighted barrel out shot them easily, both in timed events and in general accuracy. I was raised with iron sights so that is not fair to begin with I guess.

    One gun at one company had been slicked up with a ghost ring rear site from scattergun technologies. Totally wicked sight system. It was the most organic shooting experience I have had with a gun i didn't own.

    midwayusa scattergun tech sight system

    The rear site mounts on the back part of the receiver close to the eye and allows for the use of a standard stock. Most rifle sight systems will force your cheek up off the stock making you wish for a comb on it. With the rear sight so close to your eye it becomes a suggestion and all you are aware of is your front sight through the ghost of the ring. At 25 yards or less dead nuts accuracy with little thinking about it.

    If you don't want to spend the money on the gun smithing then check out the XS 24/7 sights for the 870 deer rifle barrels. Just drop these in to the factory sight mounts and you are good to go for a fast to acquire sight system.

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    Yukon254:
    Thanks for the Info. That's in line with what I've heard. At close range, like "point blank" buckshot can be effective.

    I've fired those Sabot slugs, and the recoil is so horrific, I think I'd MISS.

    I wouldn't wanna use buckshot, and wait till the bear was close enough, either, so I've never carried a shootgun for bear defense.

    I think I'd druther have my thutty-thutty, or any of my other rifles. I tend to go with heavy for caliber bullets.

    Anyway, its good to know this stuff.

    Thanks
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    Im with you Smitty, my defender has not been out of the cabinet in years, with slugs the recoil is to me anyway unbearable.

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